ET NQ #1 Scores / balance teams

[JoNny]

3 hours ago, Snuffs99 said:

Team balance has and will always be a challenge. Just way too many variables to expect a program or auto balance script to accurately give what i class as even teams. 

 

Checking and going off \scores cant always be accurate in the sense a good player could join a weaker team halfway through a map yet the \scores wont reflect that etc. Team numbers cant always be reliable in the sense that 1 really good player could be better then 3 bad ones and so forth.

 

FA has good admins and by that a good admin IMHO would take lots of things into account regarding "even" teams....First and foremost who is on each team? A team needs more than just good shooters, is a team full of good shooters or is that team balanced with shooters, engies, co ops and so on.....how far has the attacking team progressed and how quickly, what the \scores show, a team of good shooters will prob have way better scores than the other team but its not all about team damage or how many kills a team has over the other, how are the numbers team wise.

 

From what i've seen the best admins on any particular server are the ones who frequent the server and know the players, they tend to be admins who don't usually need telling teams are uneven numbers wise as they already know and have either chosen to ignore it because the team with less players IS the stronger team or they ask in chat for a player to join the weaker team Example 1 to axis please. I myself sometimes PM the better players and ask if they are happy top help the other team, they tend to be more than happy to do that. Only as a last resort will i use the !teams command, i find it annoying as hell and its certainly not needed in constant succession,,,,I actually muted a lvl 4 for 60 seconds yesterday for spamming !teams on NQ 1 over and over and over, just no need and usually a simple ask in chat will make peeps move.....in busy times admin can even wait a min and someone else will join the server and go to the team with less players anyway. 

 

Its never really a thankful task being an admin and many a time admin tend to forego their own fun game in order to keep balance as best they can. Hell i've seen some admin switch teams 3-4 times in one map, i myself have made a point at times of telling players i'm changing my name to yoyo when all i'm doing is flitting back and forth. 

 

Auto balance can be a blessing for evening the numbers but i'm yet to see one that goes beyond simple team numbers.

I totally agree with you!

A script would never do the job and not get close to how a human could see and manage things.

As you said, there's too many unknown variables that need to be taken into account, otherwise it's going to be a "It's unfair!" every 30 seconds even though it's balanced.

 

Of course there's more to just scores. There's the player count and who is in which team. Do good players switch teams mid-game or maybe disconnect? Is a really good player just connecting where you know he's gonna fix the scores in a moment if that player joins the right team.

The only solution that I would see is to add a single bot to the better team so that there is always an enforcement in having to choose that one team. Yet, you could easily fool this as the bot would then disconnect and you could then join the other team.

 

Therefore it is vital to have members or regulars with a basic game sense on the server. They don't have to be in spec or whatsoever. All they would need to do is:

• Check /scores or teams from time to time
• Call for "even teams" whenever he KNOWS things WILL go down (IMPORTANT: This could even be anticipated 2 mins into the game. I have heard of admins: Teams are fair, check /scores (for example 38/28) after 2 mins but with 9/6 or so at that time)
• Being confident enough to either use enforcment (!putteam) or join the other team themselves (if they are in the better one)

 

Unfortunately it has become quite popular to do just NOTHING. Some wait for the next map to do something about it. Some call out for teams but don't follow the third point. Some don't do anything. I'm not saying nobody is doing a good job here. Of course a few would also act properly. Yet I have had to experience some unfair situations in which admins were not caring about the situation. The simple consequence is players leaving or being frustrated. Shuffling on the nextmap won't help anymore once everyone disconnected.

 

A script would possibly be useful to identify possible issues regarding fairness and point them out to everyone or just admins, especially tailored for new players or admins that have not yet gained enough experience to differ complex situations or don't know the skill of some players.

 

TL;DR: Script could only ever be a fancy add-on. The ultimate server management / handling of unfair situations will have to be done by commited members and admins.

 

/JoNny

Edited May 18, 2020 by JoNny

[Xiahou Dun]

18 minutes ago, JoNny said:

Being confident enough to either use enforcment (!putteam) or join the other team themselves (if they are in the better one)

Honestly, using a !put to maintain order and fairly balanced teams is a good way to do so in theory. However, in reality, most players are super annoyed when they arent given the freedom of choice when it comes to a team. Not playing attack, not playing defense, not playing axis, not playing allies, not playing anything other than medic, etc. Players each have their reasons and preferences, and while I am fully supporting your comment about being decisive and confident with !put command, it usually doesnt go well.

 

I believe members are afraid to use !put because there are 2 factors that seemingly cant go together. Team balance and player preference. You can try to achieve a balanced teams by putting players manually, given that you as a member have knowledge of their skills and how willing are they to cooperate with such changes. But it will most probably quickly go south, because some people just can't accept being, and I quote one of the players "segregated". And they rather not use the !put, to not make people leave.

 

I myself use !put after a third warning about evening teams and no response. But more often than not, I DM the player I believe will make a good balance change once swapping teams, and the responses are very friendly and people are more than willing to help me with balancing teams.

Edited May 18, 2020 by Xiahou Dun
bad phrasing

[JoNny]

1 hour ago, Xiahou Dun said:

Honestly, using a !put to maintain order and fairly balanced teams is a good way to do so in theory. However, in reality, most players are super annoyed when they arent given the freedom of choice when it comes to a team. Not playing attack, not playing defense, not playing axis, not playing allies, not playing anything other than medic, etc. Players each have their reasons and preferences, and while I am fully supporting your comment about being decisive and confident with !put command, it usually doesnt go well.

 

I believe members are afraid to use !put because there are 2 factors that seemingly cant go together. Team balance and player preference. You can try to achieve a balanced teams by putting players manually, given that you as a member have knowledge of their skills and how willing are they to cooperate with such changes. But it will most probably quickly go south, because some people just can't accept being, and I quote one of the players "segregated". And they rather not use the !put, to not make people leave.

 

I myself use !put after a third warning about evening teams and no response. But more often than not, I DM the player I believe will make a good balance change once swapping teams, and the responses are very friendly and people are more than willing to help me with balancing teams.

 

I get the point you're trying to make. Yet all I have to say about it is: It must be that simple. Members become admins and receive privileges & permissions for a reason: to use them.

Yes, there are players that would go mad upon moving them. That's either VTR (or similar players) or a rater (-like person) that has a good game and you move that guy.

But: what's the difference between a script moving players and an admin doing it? None. Those players would still go mad and most likely don't even know there's a script behind all that logic. In the end, using scripts should not be visible, yet actions taken explained carefully so everyone gets to understand it.

 

So why not use a script then? Because the script would still choose players randomly. As you mentioned, there's players that would go mad about it. So? An admin could see if there's potential players willing to move. You addressed it, it could be done via pm or just calling that guy out - or just asking politely into the public chat. There's also the option to swap the teams yourself, an admin should ever be a good example, yet they should not suffer from their status, having to swap all the time.

 

To cut this short: Admins really have to use their permissions and move people. What other reason would they have the permissions for? If there's players going mad about it: Report them internally, warn them and also explain why they were chosen. (Just don't get into a discussion.) There's always a downside to things. But eventually you would help a lot more players (a whole team to be exact) to retain their fun. And keep in mind: It's not you who made the rules and who made you move players. It's a basic rule and if players want to complain, redirect them to the homepage or contact form and they should complain about the rule to the people who made them - not to you, who enforced them.

 

/JoNny

Edited May 19, 2020 by JoNny

[captnconcrete]

great answer johnny.! spot on. 

 

i myself think this is all commonsense. logic.   iknow from past experience ,, ull never make em all happy. 

 

dont get me wrong here i love this conversation. but  its impossible to be 100% fair all the time.

[Ford (Cz)]

From Wiki - "Trial and clan members should be the first to move to even teams. "  I already explained my point and reasons why I many times don't swap teams while before I always did without even asking. Now you can call me whiner, you can call me troublemaker, you can call me as you wish. I had already few times issue with some of admins. As you should know there are always 2 sides of story so you choose which 1 you want. Part of problem could be fact as you said before that there are not enough of admins on a server but .... Some of your admins are not very "cooperative" when it comes to uneven teams for example. That's known fact between players. Shall we run to forum every time and write essay about it? Can't be bothered (I would say most of us). And I am not talking just about trials btw. cos sometime there is a trial and trial. When senior admin on a server they are "amazing" but when nobody is around then it is a different story. Maybe "spy" a bit on servers by taking !listplayers from some admin level (like 11 and less) or from trials so under covered you will see how things are at real. Most of the time ok but as I said you have admins and admins. As I said you might like this opinion or not. Living a dream is nice but reality can be sometime pretty different. 

Sending PM is probably good idea if nobody even teams after lets say 1st attempt. Cos for example in my case - if you'll start like "teams are unbalanced, move or I will move somebody!" and funniest one when it is followed by "countdown" then I can't be bothered. We are an adults. Like it or not. And if admin speaks to you (to group of players) and having comments like "I have to cos it is like watching bunch of kids" etc. that means disrespecting players imho. If it is from other player then fuk it, I can handle. So as it is mentioned at Wiki - I do believe if all admins will stay calm (yep, admin "job" is not all roses) and will speak to players politely then most of the times there will be no issue at all. 

[BLAAT]

12 hours ago, Xiahou Dun said:

!Howfair is inaccurate on its own, because it scores people purely on their K/D ratio. Which in some people cases are inflated by solo farming bots at night.

 

And since there's no actual command that works like /scores, I think the best way to get people to use it would be a banner saying /scores, or/and a new command !scores, which would display that banner when someone uses it.

+1 for this solution, I think this would help a lot

[daredevil]

3 hours ago, Ford (Cz) said:

From Wiki - "Trial and clan members should be the first to move to even teams. "  I already explained my point and reasons why I many times don't swap teams while before I always did without even asking.

Wiki wasn't updated while some rules had changed. That rule is legacy rule which you 'highlighted' when we had active admins and also sometimes admin skill level suck, ex like mine. I really suck at game now to make huge difference so sometimes asking skilled players is best route. Let's just be realistic - moving 10 low+ players like me, would be hard compare to moving 1-2 skilled players as well. So asking works sometimes. 

 

Rule is updated to reflect:

"Trial and clan members should be the first to move to even teams. We expect members to move at least once every 2-3 maps. Also not all members have good enough skill level, to make difference or actually resolve unbalance issue, so if that's the case, asking/moving regulars/skilled player is best thing to do. "

[Ellen]

Good rule! Please enforce it too. Could !putteam trialists/members who won't balance, if clearly it is their job. Moving one or two skilled non-members then is a different thing.

Edited May 19, 2020 by Ellen
typo

[Ford (Cz)]

8 minutes ago, daredevil said:

moving 10 low+ players like me, would be hard

Once I was about to start taking bets - you were AFK so we were wondering who has balls big enough to move you to specs 😄 

[daredevil]

27 minutes ago, Ellen said:

Good rule! Please enforce it too. Could !putteam trialists/members who won't balance, if clearly it is their job. Moving one or two skilled non-members then is a different thing.

Take SS and contact us. Aadmins are humans too and if they miss checking scores, sometimes, I don't blame them. But my problem is when regular notifies teams are bad or another admin mentions it and then also some admins ignore it. That's when, I start warning those admins.  I also warn players who complain for teams when teams are fine and it's 18 vs 20. Just off by 1 and some players actually spam up. 

 

For me team balance is common sense: Don't let one team slaughter and don't let one team get spawn killed on 'continuous' basis. 

[Snuffs99]

32 minutes ago, Ford (Cz) said:

Once I was about to start taking bets - you were AFK so we were wondering who has balls big enough to move you to specs 😄 

Haha, i'd happily move peeps to spec if they are afk (Daredevil included) but in this case its not about balls and more about dares lvl 21...Admin cannot move higher admin so no one could move Dare even if they wanted too. 😛

[FixFox]

Hi everyone, I refer to a few threads.
Of course, please note that this is just my opinion
1.Americans win e.g. 150 killa I am in allies and I have 15/20 and 2 players in allies have 50 kill or more 
and in axis there is no player over 50 kill, in my opinion it is better to transfer one player who has 50kill to axis than me I have to go to axis because it will change a little.
2.Another thing people who scream about the balance of the team and not even check / scores. 
Which is ridiculous that you write to them to calm down and check the result and see that, for example, they have 2 players less but 100kill more and so their advantage increases.
3.Another thing is not every player is a killer (it sounds bad but you know what it is). For example, I see I attack allanic and they have -2 players, but I also see that their team has 7 engineers and that almost every one of them has 0/10 (for example) but they push the whole map forward by force it means that the alliance is losing or winning. 
Obviously we will point out that allanic kills me by -150 but it is clear that they are winning the map and they will be close at least.
4.And when it comes to the fact that admins will not change, I do not agree with this claim, but I noticed that often players run to the spec, 
only to make me pass to the weaker team or move someone there and jump to the winning team.
5.Administrators are also people and they like to win

But my motto is balance above all  FixFox say yoyoyo all

[Ellen]

Also these binds and setting help:

 

bind F9 "SCORES"
bind F10 "say ^6You can !putteam me to balance teams!"
bind F11 "AUTOSCREENSHOT"

seta cg_autoAction "3"

 

F9 for quickly checking scores, F10 to notify admins when you have to join "wrong" team and F11 if you need to take a quick SS. Autoaction 3 value records everything automatically (in Silent mod at least).

[HarryAimpotter]

What should I do in a situation like this? I can't join allies, because they have one more player. If you do /scores teams would probably be fairly even because flamma + CijoePL would have 3/4 of the entire frags of allies and the rest of the team would be in the negatives.

[notellenPage]

1 hour ago, HarryAimpotter said:

What should I do in a situation like this?

Ask Kerm or any other admin to putteam you.