ET On the hard job of team balancing - misconceptions, hints to look for, mistakes to avoid

[RendeL]

Guys pls take your debate on pm. Point is said, point is proven, now get over it.

[-=HipKat=-]

@ElEl how can I call you a stacker if you're already on the team when I join the server? I said the only time you have an issue is when you're on the team that has the advantage. There's a difference between saying you stacked the team or someone else stacked the team, that you happen to be on and when I said something about it you made a big freaking deal out of it. Now if you're done acting like a 12 year old, maybe we can move forward.

 

I think the questions I posted yesterday on here, are pretty straightforward and it was on here, on the forum, that I didn't name any names or any maps. 

 

If I'm calling you out for anything it's that this problem never happens except for when you're on the server. Instead of arguing with me why don't you just ask those other guys? I play with them a hell of a lot more than I play with you, and that's by design.

 

And keep one thing in mind, it's not me that makes me feel uncomfortable when you're on the server.

 

 

 

2 hours ago, RendeL said:

Guys pls take your debate on pm. Point is said, point is proven, now get over it.

sorry man I answered his post before I saw yours. I don't want to argue with anybody. I just want a straightforward answer to those two questions, and not from him if it's okay

[-=HipKat=-]

8 hours ago, captnconcrete said:

el! i love u man...

 

hipkat .. ..  i love u too bud.

 

 this is a good write up .. i like it. no ones perfect.  there isnt any  one perfect way to even teams. 

 

u cant go soly off scores u cant go soly off playercount.  theres game progression.  how manyfraggers verse fraggers . an yadda yadda yadda. kill death counts . and xp gains.

also when certain players are on its pretty well pointless cuz they havent a clue.  skill level !!!! some ones always gonna win someones always gonna lose. no matter what u do . to keep it even.

 

 

 

 

dude, all these other things, it's like you have to be a calculus professor LOL. When I owned my servers or on servers where I was admin, it was easy. Player count and that was it. If one side got their ass handed to them, try harder or wait for the shuffle. On my servers we shuffled after every three maps automatically but that was 10 years ago so obviously things have changed. 

Edited March 2, 2021 by -=HipKat=-

[captnconcrete]

i would just like to point out fur a sec.look up at top on this topic  message by dare devil.! 

2 hours ago, -=HipKat=- said:

If one side got their ass handed to him, try harder or wait for the shuffle.

seems pretty hard for some now days to even grasp this.

 

[PHNTM]

[spectator]

Sometimes it's fun when it's  a little unbalanced and you have to work for it. I've had some of my best games with superior opponents. (Like 1 second victories, the stuff you actually play for...and after you experience it a close game is not 30 seconds anymore. :D) 
Sometimes it's fun, sometimes it's extremely frustrating... 

There are times where teams don't even feel remotely close in terms of people actually accomplishing anything... It can be fun if both teams are a power house and it's a straight up brawl... (Games where everyone is constantly firing shots are awesome...)

It's just really not fun when you get spanked, your team gets spanked and there's no real fight... you can't even get out of your spawn, or you can't even make it to a tank, or you can't even move a truck 2 feet... and that goes on the whole game, those games basically suck to play...When a team can't even move, then it's pretty unfair... you can have those players that somehow get past the opposing team but it's usually not fair and unless those players actually want a challenge, they aren't going to have any fun....

I've had more games like this than I think I can remember on hand but it doesn't happen all the time. It does happen though... and it's usually stacked...meaning 4 amazing players all on the same team. It does happen sometimes... 

Sometimes you get players good enough to work with you as a team  and that works but sometimes even with team work the other team will have super dupers that just kill everything.... One superdupper is okay. They have to play somewhere and no matter where they join, teams will probably be a little uneven, it makes it more challenging,  but when you see teams with like 3-4 super dupers that can be kind of annoying...it does happen. 

There's times where I actually LET the other team win or get past certain objectives. It makes for a better game if you can beat the hell out a team but not break them... Sometimes, I let a team have the obj, because it makes it more fun and memorable. ( I play as "hi" now on jay 2... )

I've been having fun with my new alias but I can see how some people would be upset with some of the teams I've been seeing the past couple of days. 

Last night , I forget who I was playing with but the axis team had 4 super players and it just basically me and FA-Air Raid (I think is his name, I forget...) against the whole world....It was horrible.  Another thing is that even if I can get some good frags in here and there, it can be very hard to play against great players when you can't stop doing obj and you're getting slaughtered while you try to do obj mostly by yourself because your team just  isn't going to get to it like you can. So you spend most the map dying because no one else can do it, and somehow maybe it ends up being a even match in the end but your ratio is like 10 vs 50... 😄  But also, if you slow down and take the time to fight...maybe you can take on some of these superior players but then you aren't doing obj...   That sort of blows too... Simply fragging is not what the game is about...(Sometimes it's what it comes down to, but the game has actual objectives and a winner/ loser...) Of course at the server we're playing for fun but for players who are actually trying to win and aren't just rambo medics or running around in circles like it's DOOM II multiplayer, sometimes they don't have the greatest of fun when their team is so disorganized/ broken... or is running around fragging but nothing is actually getting done. 

Even if you can fight some of these players,  if your team isn't doing any objectives or able because the opposing team is so strong they just chop everyone down... you fight these players then die because there's just too many. Even if you can fight these guys, and even it out in scores... what fun is that when your team is trying to win and is getting spanked? So you try to do the obj but you're not God and can't take on 4 good players at once that are working together like a powerhouse... so you die alot... and maybe somehow you pull off the obj but you're going do die a lot... 

Mostly as an obj player against a superior team you're rushing into bullets or grenades to plant a dyno or dive over a railing with a document and jump across six posts and dive into a truck.... you don't take the time for a brawl when you're facing a superior team, you're running like hell... So it can really suck when super players are on the same team together and you just cant handle them all at once...(Sometimes it makes for a good game, sometimes...) The guy who runs into a battle zone with a wrench isn't going to be swapping bullets, he might as well have his pants down... and if his team isn't strong or there to back him up, it can either make it challenging or darn near impossible for that team to win... 

Even if the scores are even and lots of people are dying... that doesn't mean they are actually doing any objs. I guess that's when it comes down to having fun vs actually playing the game to win. Sometimes you'll have a super medic on your team driving up your teams scores but he'll do little to nothing to actually help your team win or accomplish objs... ( But, they do help actually sometimes...) 

Most objective players learn to work alone anyways but when you have good players on your team you'll work together on occasion to accomplish the objectives. Like the other night Air Raid and I tried but it was still uneven, way uneven. We came close made it past one truck barrier and almost a second but we didn't manage it...it wasn't a bad game but I could see some players quitting after a game like that and un-installing it forever. XD

I don't know... 







 

Edited March 3, 2021 by spectator

[-=HipKat=-]

2 hours ago, spectator said:

It's just really not fun when you get spanked, your team gets spanked and there's no real fight... you can't even get out of your spawn, or you can't even make it to a tank, or you can't even move a truck 2 feet... and that goes on the whole game, those games basically suck to play...When a team can't even move, then it's pretty unfair... you can have those players that somehow get past the opposing team but it's usually not fair and unless those players actually want a challenge, they aren't going to have any fun....




 

This part was good., The rest was ...huh???

[captnconcrete]

spawn alone die alone.. never understood why people want to play like this. in scrims etpro u wont ever see a good trained team. diealone spawn alone. 

 

teamwork always prevails.some guys in jay2 only come on to win if they cant win they cry about everylittle stupid thing. yet they spawn alone die alone. most of the so called medic fraggers watch em pay close  attention. they only play to win fraggs. if they cant they dip out like little bitches or stack or cry like a river. the real players on jaY2 will play to have fun.. 3 mins left they fragged ur asses but u are winning map oh wait they all rage quit now its 3 v7 .lol i laugh my ass off everytime.

[AirRaid]

I agree with you @captnconcrete. Teamplay is key to playing an objective based game. We say "teamplay is compulsory." What does that mean?

 

I am always amazed that the "rambo" medics who play on Jay2 rarely move with the team toward the objective, like moving the tank for example on Goldrush. These type of players are off somewhere camping the spawn exits, hiding, fragging, and running to heal. There are a few other players like that but they are not medics. We all know who they are and their tactics. My kill to death ratio is roughly 1 to 3, maybe at best 2 to 4. I will say it again. It is hard to kill another player with pliers

[Gameplan]

This is like watching a car crash. After the initial bang, it's just smoldering metal and nothing changes.

 

My two cents: I think El touched on the fact that in the first SS - Caen - Axis had 3 shooters and on Allies he was the only one with significant kills/DG. I have noticed this situation more and more as of late especially on Allies. More 'dead weight' with negative kill ratios. Unless those guys, i.e. sky clan, are going for the obj, that's probably OK. But what I refer to as dead weight are the guys neither near the obj nor getting significant kills - i.e. crybaby, elias, etc. Amt of ppl may be the same and overall kills may be similar, esp when El is on that team, but that map probably isn't moving the obj. In that case, a shuffle is due and moving these guys around. 

 

Not sure what we do about these guys, they can play the server and any style they like, but as @AirRaid pointed out, we have a message clearly stating team play is compulsory. Can't tell you how many times I tried prodding these guys along to help the team only to suffer in frustration as they refuse to change or communicate. Mostly now, I just do my best and shuffle them next map - just a band aid mostly cuz they just move back to allies or leave.

[AirRaid]

@Gameplan is spot on. Team balance is more than scores, numbers, etc. If players are not playing the map then the scenario that Gameplan outlines is how many maps on Jay2 play out. Strong players drive the score, while other players like these that he mentions do not play the objective and are "dead weight." It is a frustrating dilemma.

[spectator]

I agree with both of you, I tired saying the same thing in my own way.  


I will say though that a high ACC or "good" kill/ death ratio isn't necessarily useful in ET... Sometimes I have a high frag among other high fraggers but I still die a lot because my kills aren't hiding in a corner self healing or sniping or flaming, FG kills, etc. I always rush in aggressively which sometimes is a bad thing, sometimes it's a good thing. 😄  A high kill/ death ratio is useful in say.... DOOM multiplayer where the game is only a frag fest. 

I feel like high ACC is almost a myth as silly as that sounds. After a certain point, do you really need 70, 50, even 40 acc to hit someone 2 feet away when hit boxes are like 4 feet wide? I really don't think it matters much. No one really needs a 70 ACC to be great  at ET in my opinion... I can almost safely say that when a player is better than me , it's not their ACC that really gets the best of me. It's how they move and perhaps their config files. ( I've made my own config and I can see already that a proper config makes a HUGE difference in your gameplay experience.) 

 

 

I also don't think the kill/ death ratio matters much. You can actually be decent up close and personal but get raped from the back or gang raped or shot from 300 feet away and end up dying quite a bit...  Also your ACC is going to be worse if you're running into 5 guys to try and move a tank by yourself... you're going to be swinging the mouse around like a ape trying to hit whatever you can.  You're going to die a lot if you're not a fragger sometimes, that doesn't necessarily mean you're a bad player. (Like anything else I bet being a medic frag whore takes experience/ practice....that not every player has...) 

When teams ARE stacked and you have like 3 medics gang raping together near a spawn, good for you if you can get out of that situation but if not I don't think less of you. I've seen decent players all the time getting destroyed because they are actually trying to play the obj or aren't a medic hiding somewhere in a corner playing it safe for 20 minutes, etc... 

I think basing it off score is another myth, it can indicate certain things about teams... but sometimes a team with a higher score is most certainly the weaker team over all. I agree that team work is important but sometimes teams are so unfair that even if you work together, sometimes a engineer has to go it alone and get to the obj through sheer dumb luck alone, taking a medic with you is simply a miracle sometimes (because you'd be lucky if you even make there alone....) I do see a lot of high fraggers obssessed with accuracy and kill/ death ratio and I think to them it's a very real thing and some sort of indicator of their skill and "reputation" as players. 

I agree it would be nice to see some of these fraggers to help with the obj more.  

 

[Letdown]

 

On 2/27/2021 at 9:38 PM, spectator said:

I already un-installed the game.

 

20 hours ago, spectator said:

( I play as "hi" now on jay 2... )

 

Welcome back then

Time for some teamwork.

 

[-=HipKat=-]

This is maybe going in another direction from the OP, but not going after "the Gold" is not necessarily not playing the objective. Sitting back and getting kills on enemies protecting the Objective is still objective based. On some maps, I play to "get the gold", like Caen, Frostbite, Adler and others, when I'm on the attacking team. For G_rush, I sit back and try to kill Axis defending the bank, if I'm on Allies. Very few maps are Axis on Attack, so those, I'm more apt to frag more than actually protect the objective, but that's still killing Allies who are coming for "the gold".

 

(BTW, I always play Engi on Adler if I'm Allies, until the CP is built  and Covi on Fueldump when I was Jay 1 and a few other maps where I'm not a Medic)

 

One other thing, unless everyone is on a Voice Chat room on Discord, real team play is not so easy

Edited March 4, 2021 by -=HipKat=-

[spectator]

It only takes one player with 40 acc opposing a team with 4 players with 40 acc to screw up teams. The real mystery is why that one player who has just as much acc / skill as the others can dominate an entire team who doesn't suck. Sometimes it's just ridiculous to watch one player destroy an entire game, throw the entire thing into unbalance... worse of all they know it. They joke around they will use luggers or something to balance out teams... and if they still dominate you have to wonder why players who don't suck, who move with skill, shoot a 40 acc like their opponent can't even touch their opponent.

Whether or not it's fair or considerate to state, some players just ruin the game... no matter the reason/ cause...they just aren't fun to play with. It's fine when you have a decent player who gives you a challenge but the guy who has a 40-even 50 acc who comes into the server and destroys everyone, even the players who shoot a 40 or 50 acc and have years of experience...aren't really the sorts you want around. They ruin the fun...

It might be mean to say it but no one really wants those kind of "game breakers" around... sometimes it's ridiculous how one "god player" can break the entire server...