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ET On the hard job of team balancing - misconceptions, hints to look for, mistakes to avoid


RASHOMON
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Thank you for nice post. If anyone tries to derail the conversation by pointing fingers/drama, they will be banned from accessing this topic. 

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Well this was a pleasant surprise and a pleasure to read. A well thought out piece. I agree with everything being said here, not much else to add. I just wanted to reiterate one of your points.

 

This is why a map's design is super important, it can dictate how hard a map is. There are certain maps I hate playing as allies because of this. I remember we had that X-posed map on Beg2 a few weeks ago, that map is one of the hardest for allies because axis could just bomb the crap out of the tank barriers. You would literally spend the whole round just trying to destroy the barriers especially that last one. Brutal.

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Just read this post. Good read for admins and regulars alike.  You have valid points and the map descriptions help even the most novice of players.  Im glad to see you adding your knowledge to the site Rashomon. Im looking forward to ou4r sniping wars.  I 0always appreciated the fact you shared some of your moments and it actually helped me out. See you on the servers. 

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On 11/29/2020 at 10:27 AM, RASHOMON said:

3. It doesn't have to do with team kill scores either.

When a player swaps team, he brings with him his kill count making it hard to keep track of the situation from the beginning. Second, don't be fooled by even team scores. If a very dominant attacking team has to cover a lot of ground from their spawn to the fighting points near objective and/or defending team's spawn point, they'll get less kills in comparison with what they should be rewarded from being the stronger team. In Bremen (before allies get CP), allies come a long way to fight for CP-card-truck repair and escort. Therefore, axis have a lot to shoot at. If the Allies are stronger, they'll choke Axis in their courtyard making it an unfair game but axis will get a lot of kill in return. But it will not be enough to overcome the Allies waves. They kill a lot but more are coming. Therefore blindly saying: "look, we are playing Caen and the score is 300/310, it means the game is fair" does not hold much value. In Caen, Axis (the attacking team) have to cover a lot of ground to get to Allies spawn/obj. So they'll get less kills than Allies despite surrounding them quite easily due to the nature of the map. However, the objective is easy to defend (flamethrower, nade spawns, mobile, arty outside, close Allies spawn) therefore it creates tricky situations where Axis easily dominate Allies while Allies successfully defend their obj because it's easier than on other maps (simiarly to Goldrush). It makes it really hard to tell whether teams need proper balance or not: Axis never bring the obj to the boat but they often squeeze Allies due to map setting rather than only having stronger players.

 

But, what about when one team is ahead by 200 pts, has an extra player over the other team and is not winning the objective but obviously winning the battles? Is there a need to balance teams there??

 

2nd, 1 team is slightly ahead and has one the best players on the server, player count is even, another top skilled player joins that same team and the score rapidly get way apart?? Should that new player be made to join the team that's now getting smashed since he was the last one to join the server? or is that covered here?

 

Last point, fraggers. I'm talking about rate players, rambo medics, call them whatever you want. They are a variable that is rather easily controlable. These players, while not caring at all about the obj, have a great influence over the general course of a map for the mere reason that they kill a lot of players. This is why it is mandatory to try having an even number of fraggers on each team (I think FA does a great job with this (Bond gets a pass for some reason but that's not the point :P), they often try to unstack fraggers from one team and things get more balanced very quickly because if both teams have fraggers, the fighting points (tm) are located around the acceptable central part of the map). Provided that both teams have a similar number of players going for objective and defending it, you can rather easily tell how the map will swing based on the number of fraggers (and their identity, of course, all fraggers aren't equal) per team. Sometimes, 1 more fragger in a team will destabilize a map's balance.

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17 minutes ago, -=HipKat=- said:

But, what about when one team is ahead by 200 pts, has an extra player over the other team and is not winning the objective but obviously winning the battles? Is there a need to balance teams there??

Here you're referring to the Caen game we played earlier I think. Let's look at the scores from the middle of the game where you started complaining about Allies being the stronger team:

 

ad53a00613fe13e31e3ca2e671fe3118.png

 

As someone who was a high level admin for this clan and someone who literally wrote the admin guide on balancing teams on our wiki this is what I see:

Axis have the advantage in kills but not damage given. That's probably because kikuss is playing panzer so take away that and Axis have a strong lead in terms of damage given, ~28k to 22k. Now let's look at the highest fraggers of each team. Axis have Ex0hol, whatever and DeathSIde all with a large amount of kills and each with about a 2:1 kill ratio. It's fair to say they're medic fraggers and decent players.

Now look at Allies. The only player with more than 20 kills is me. Imagine If I were to go spec or join Axis, then Allies would completely fall apart. If any team here has the advantage then that would be Axis, clear as day. Allies have FOUR players with more deaths than kills. The only thing Allies are leading in is the score column and that's probably because of the panzer getting insane XP per kill. In terms of the objective, Allies were struggling hard to defend and we eventually lost.

 

You started crying about how you're down 200 points when that score is worthless in terms of telling which team is stacked. You then went on to say an Allied player should move over to Axis, despite me and Mr*Brightside telling you that teams favoured Axis.

757bd32695219f912e1832e6ce1e42fd.png

d372fb3114324b15aa31b16846fecd92.png

It's fair to assume that you must be smoking crack.  I would like to know why you started crying about these teams being in favour of Allies given these things I've said.

 

Here's the scores at the end of the map as well:

6487e070a8715027c6365a65e834a121.png

Wow Allies are so stacked 👌.

 

30 minutes ago, -=HipKat=- said:

2nd, 1 team is slightly ahead and has one the best players on the server, player count is even, another top skilled player joins that same team and the score rapidly get way apart?? Should that new player be made to join the team that's now getting smashed since he was the last one to join the server?

Here I think you're talking about Frostbite so let's go over that.

 

You claim that scores were "way apart" after Achilles joined Allies right?

7299dd133418d76e4bb220b0aac0860d.png

03f1ca2b5148d3ab097f8899794b1f3f.png

 

Doesn't look like it to me. These are the scores the moment Achilles moved to Axis because you started talking bullshit. 133+9 = 142. 151-9=142. That's pretty even considering Allies were effectively down 1 player the first half of the game because one of our teammates was playing mortar... on Frostbite. I'm still not sure where the scores are "way apart" but whatever. Let's talk about the pace of the match. 

Axis were destroying Allies. 4 of them camping outside of our spawn at one point just raking in kills. Achilles was right to join Allies as we needed help more at the time.

 

Now the third map, Italy.

Here are the scores:

62e2e92ca7807586fb0f61a68767ad3a.png

I'll leave this as an exercise for you so that you can learn to break it down like I have. As a hint, you should come to the conclusion that this is reasonably balanced in terms of player skill.

 

 

 

When I determine team balance I look at Kills, Deaths, Damage Given, Eff (specifically how many people have less than 50 as that means more deaths than kills), the top players of each team, the pace of the objective, if any team is getting destroyed outside of their spawn and also which player would be best placed on the other team to get a better balance. On Jay2 I'd argue the most important of these is the top players on each team as 2 medic fraggers can easily roll a full team on this server.

 

It looks to me like the only thing you base team balance on is the Score column. This is insane. Then you've got the gall to spread that misinformation about team balance which only f***s it up more. If it's not even just me telling you you're wrong then you should listen, myself, Mr*Brightside and DeathSIde were telling you on Caen but you refused to hear any of it. This is far from the first time I've had to point out that you're spreading false information regarding team balance which is why I lost my patience with you today.

b98272113466851d51f4df0d9b2274c8.png

Say less 🙃.

 

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Actually, I said scores were slightly apart when Achilles  joined and the middle of the map on Caen is when I joined.  I never said anything about scores during Italy, but thanks for uncovering the anonymous question I was trying to ask

In the heat of the game, going through multiple scenarios to try and hypothesize which team is or isn't unbalanced is ridiculous. It's pretty simple, actually. 1 team has an extra player and is 200 pts ahead, common sense says that team is unbalanced in their favor. Also, as @RASHOMON pointed out, is looking at the skill level of players, or fraggers. 

 

Now, if I was trying to call you out, I would have, so try not to take it so personally, but anytime I try to keep teams balanced and someone complains, it's always you and only you - this never happens when you're not on the server,  and always when you're on the stacked team. Every time. I'm old. I pay attention to things like that.

No, I don't have "proofs" because I didn't come here to get into that. 

 

Bottom line is, I'm trying to keep teams even. If you have any doubts, talk to Game, Shatte, Letdown, etc about how I'm normally the first player to move and almost always without being asked because I try and keep an eye on it. If I'm doing it wrong, at least I'm fkn trying. Not "crying". 

 

There are 2 regulars I can't stand to see show up and most times I just leave and that's you and Cake who both think it's jump my shit time when you come on. Thank GOD he stays off Jay 2 almost all the time. Seriously, GTFO my back.

 

Now, since you want to throw quotes around, instead of the times you've whined on here about being an admin, I'll just leave this here instead;

 

Quote


Team balance on Jay2 is difficult because of the skill level variance, it's unfortunate but I think the best way to deal with it is to get more players on the server.

Playing on Jay2 as an admin was miserable for me. When I'm on a team and people I'm playing against decide to leave, a lot of the times if I moved over scores would be heavily skewed in their favour and I rarely see regulars want to do anything about it. It usually ends with me going spec and that's my fun ruined. If I swap I'll just get accused of stacking or whatever. It's a big problem especially with all these people that will only play x team or only play if they're on the same team as their friend.

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Very good post and also such a great topic that happens all the time.   I myself usually have a difficult time figuring out what to do or when to try to balance teams and usually have some one that is a nay sayer about who I have moved to balance the team (" NOT POINTING FINGERS"). I really appreciate this topic and also is helpful.    Top notch 👍

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@ElEl

@-=HipKat=-

 

Easy guys,...

You both seem very angry on each other. Maybee take your time and try to settle it someday when some grass is grown over.

From now on you wont make any profit from talking to each other as it seems.

Maybee you take your dispute out of public and take it to private discord if you "have to" settle it. Otherwise disagree to disagree is always an option.

 

I know i have no right to interfeer with you both, so sorry for that.

 

With all due respect 

Vice86

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@Vice86 yeah, for sure.

 

I just made the post for clarification. I kept it anonymous for a reason not mentioning any names or any particular maps.

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el! i love u man...

 

hipkat .. ..  i love u too bud.

 

 this is a good write up .. i like it. no ones perfect.  there isnt any  one perfect way to even teams. 

 

u cant go soly off scores u cant go soly off playercount.  theres game progression.  how manyfraggers verse fraggers . an yadda yadda yadda. kill death counts . and xp gains.

also when certain players are on its pretty well pointless cuz they havent a clue.  skill level !!!! some ones always gonna win someones always gonna lose. no matter what u do . to keep it even.

 

 

 

 

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15 hours ago, -=HipKat=- said:

Actually, I said scores were slightly apart

 

17 hours ago, -=HipKat=- said:

2nd, 1 team is slightly ahead and has one the best players on the server, player count is even, another top skilled player joins that same team and the score

 

17 hours ago, -=HipKat=- said:

rapidly get way apart

 

17 hours ago, -=HipKat=- said:

way apart

Ok. 🙂

 

16 hours ago, -=HipKat=- said:

It's pretty simple, actually. 1 team has an extra player and is 200 pts ahead, common sense says that team is unbalanced in their favor

I've disproven this in my previous post.

 

16 hours ago, -=HipKat=- said:

looking at the skill level of players, or fraggers. 

Yep that's exactly what I did too and I came to the conclusion that neither of the 3 games you were here for was I on the stacked team. Maybe someone else could check as well.

 

16 hours ago, -=HipKat=- said:

Now, if I was trying to call you out, I would have, so try not to take it so personally, but anytime I try to keep teams balanced and someone complains, it's always you and only you - this never happens when you're not on the server,  and always when you're on the stacked team. Every time. I'm old. I pay attention to things like that.

No, I don't have "proofs" because I didn't come here to get into that. 

You did call me out.

b98272113466851d51f4df0d9b2274c8.png

I would not have gone to such lengths to disprove this otherwise. I am rightfully pissed at being called a stacker when I do so much to try keep things even.

 

Yes I point out when you're falsely claiming that the teams are unbalanced or are skewed in the favour of the team you're not on. You do this a lot. Three people told you during the game that you were wrong and you refused to listen. If three people told me I was wrong about something I would reconsider or at least find evidence to prove my case. You've done neither. I don't know why I'm wasting my time on you spelling it out. I asked you to make a post because you were accusing me of stacking and I have proof to the contrary. You call me a stacker and can't show me anything to prove it other than one column of scores, a practically useless column, being in my team's favour while none of the others are.

16 hours ago, -=HipKat=- said:

If I'm doing it wrong, at least I'm fkn trying.

I wouldn't have a problem with this if you actually listened to what an experienced admin is telling you regarding team balance. You just think you know everything because of an XP earned column. What makes it worse is you're actively making teams worse by spreading this misinformation in the chat, causing further imbalance.

 

16 hours ago, -=HipKat=- said:

always when you're on the stacked team.

Show me in the screenshots I've provided where I am on ANY of those stacked teams. As I pointed out I was against all of the high fraggers as well and my kills make up the largest majority of my team's kills. If you're seriously suggesting that I should have swapped teams in any of those 3 maps then you are wrong. You even quoted my other post about why I can't just swap teams so easily to balance things out. I'm not even sure why you quoted that, did you think that would help your argument? 

 

50 minutes ago, -=HipKat=- said:

I just made the post for clarification. I kept it anonymous for a reason not mentioning any names or any particular maps.

You loaded those questions in your favour to prove that you were right. Those scenarios you made up were not at all what happened in any of those games we played and I proved this was the case.

 

 

Call me a stacker one more time without providing proof and I will just mute you.

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