ET On the hard job of team balancing - misconceptions, hints to look for, mistakes to avoid

[RASHOMON]

Hello there,

After having a rather interesting discussion with a user on #J1 yesterday and after seeing many people argue in good faith about team balance using completely invalid arguments, I'd like to chip in and bring my 2 cents in the hope to have a fruitful conversation and to change some misconceptions about fair teams and unbalanced matches.

 

1. Far too often, I see people looking at the number of people in a team and call for additional people in the underfilled team so that the number of players in each team is even. While in many cases, such calls are entirely justified as a team with less players is very likely to be severly dominated by the other one - this is fairly obvious and doesn't need more explanations-, there are some instances where a team is down 2 or even 3 players and is doing okay, maintaining some advantages on the map or conceiding objectives without being overwhelmed. In my opinion, this statu quo is fine as after a couple of minutes, someone usually joins and teams get even again.

--> While being the most obvious criteria for team balance, the number of players in each team doesn't always tell how the game is going. Thus, before calling for backup, everyone should try to have a good understanding of how the game is truly going so that people aren't forced to move to the depleted team and feel obliged to move, wrongfully perceiving an unfair match where there is in fact none. Which leads to my second point: what constitutes and unbalanced game?

 

2. First, it has little to do with objective completion.

In a map like Goldrush, allies are not weak. They never win it (I've seen it won like 3 times in the 3 months I've been playing here) because it's a hard map to win and the risk-reward ratio strongly leans towards risk. Allies are much better off overhanging axis' courtyard and spawn than rushing to the bank where it's easy for axis to set up a heavy defense. Even with a strong axis side, allies almost always have the upper hand due to the mere setting of the map. A high ground and lots of shooting places, 2 mortar points, easy to set up artillery, etc. Some maps have difficult final objectives to fight for. It is natural for the attacking team to focus more on killing opponents than dying again and again for very little gain.

Therefore, only looking at the objective progress to determine whether a game is being played on an even ground is not enough. If the objective is too hard, the attacking team will fail and will turn their attention to kills. Some maps favour camping over obj and it can lead to very unpleasant situations for the defending team.

 

3. It doesn't have to do with team kill scores either.

When a player swaps team, he brings with him his kill count making it hard to keep track of the situation from the beginning. Second, don't be fooled by even team scores. If a very dominant attacking team has to cover a lot of ground from their spawn to the fighting points near objective and/or defending team's spawn point, they'll get less kills in comparison with what they should be rewarded from being the stronger team. In Bremen (before allies get CP), allies come a long way to fight for CP-card-truck repair and escort. Therefore, axis have a lot to shoot at. If the Allies are stronger, they'll choke Axis in their courtyard making it an unfair game but axis will get a lot of kill in return. But it will not be enough to overcome the Allies waves. They kill a lot but more are coming. Therefore blindly saying: "look, we are playing Caen and the score is 300/310, it means the game is fair" does not hold much value. In Caen, Axis (the attacking team) have to cover a lot of ground to get to Allies spawn/obj. So they'll get less kills than Allies despite surrounding them quite easily due to the nature of the map. However, the objective is easy to defend (flamethrower, nade spawns, mobile, arty outside, close Allies spawn) therefore it creates tricky situations where Axis easily dominate Allies while Allies successfully defend their obj because it's easier than on other maps (simiarly to Goldrush). It makes it really hard to tell whether teams need proper balance or not: Axis never bring the obj to the boat but they often squeeze Allies due to map setting rather than only having stronger players.

 

--> 4. That's why the most accurate tool to act on team balance should rather be studied in term of fighting points over the map (of course, the aforementioned points have to be taken into account but one should never make a call or take an admin decision solely on obj/number of ppl in a team/team kill score).

 

In each map, there is what I'll call an acceptable fighting ground : on river_port, the following fighting points should usually be deemed acceptable in a balanced game:

 

If the main fighting area shift towards something like this:

Then you most likely will have a game entirely dominated by Allies. It may seem obvious but from what I've seen, this get more often than not overlooked by either players or admins. They'll look at scores, see that axis are on an even ground with allies (well yes, fighting occurs in front of them when they spawn, they will get kills, no matter what, no matter how hard their asses is getting spanked.

 

2nd example (it's on imgur cause I can't upload too many files directly here) : etdo (Fuel Depot). It is a hard map for allies. There is only one way to cap the flag (yes you can go backdoor but it's different and I don't know shit about that route so... 😛) so allies not capping at all doesn't mean the game has been unbalanced. So we have to look at fighting areas again:

https://imgur.com/a/BBery7S

Here is what an acceptable fighting area looks like (I think you'll agree with me here. Sometimes, the whole 20 minutes take place around here and it's fine, both parties can enjoy the map.)

 

When the fighting area moves to something like this:

https://imgur.com/a/jiOYvaZ

it becomes quickly impossible for allies to do anything: they get panzered, artied, mortared, sniped, headshoted from a whole range of places and it turns into clay shooting for axis (not very fun). Once again, as the map goes by, things can change - a new player arrives, one leaves and the momentum can shift but if for several minutes, allies are pressured into their own spawn corridors, then a change must occur.  

 

So with these two maps (I could take Venice too, it's pretty straightfoward there and fighting points are easily distinguishable) my main point was that one has to look at fighting areas first and foremost, before taking action to call for reinforcement, move players, look at team scores, etc. it seems pretty obvious but I don't see it taken into consideration a lot - if ever. Of course, certain maps are prone to an unfair fight. In et_beach, no matter how strong axis are, they'll always fight on the back foot, because of the design of the map and because it is way too small for FA's population but as I understood it, everyone seems to like their share of chaos once in a while and it's fine. I don't think you can call unbalanced teams at all on a map like this.

 

Last point, fraggers. I'm talking about rate players, rambo medics, call them whatever you want. They are a variable that is rather easily controlable. These players, while not caring at all about the obj, have a great influence over the general course of a map for the mere reason that they kill a lot of players. This is why it is mandatory to try having an even number of fraggers on each team (I think FA does a great job with this (Bond gets a pass for some reason but that's not the point :P), they often try to unstack fraggers from one team and things get more balanced very quickly because if both teams have fraggers, the fighting points (tm) are located around the acceptable central part of the map). Provided that both teams have a similar number of players going for objective and defending it, you can rather easily tell how the map will swing based on the number of fraggers (and their identity, of course, all fraggers aren't equal) per team. Sometimes, 1 more fragger in a team will destabilize a map's balance.

 

I think I've included all the points I wanted to make, it may appear a little messy cause team balancing is a hard job (and FA members usually do a very good job), an everchanging one because things are never stable and every parameter that I mentioned plays its role.

 

In conclusion, let's say that taking action on team balance must be done carefully because it takes a lot of parameters to account for. And these parameters are moving all the time: people come and go, swap teams, go afk for a while, An objective can be decided on dumb luck, a good mortar, a dyna timer setting off at the right time, a teammate's arty shoving half your team away from the objective, the arrival of a very good player who will have such an impact on the map that balancing teams will be a nightmare, etc. I think the main thing to look at is to see whether both teams have an equal chance of walking, wandering and shooting around the center of the map (but sometimes, it is good to remember that there are unbalancable situations or maps). I hope you enjoyed reading the piece, I hope it made some sense and I'll be glad to discuss the points I've raised if needed!

 

Greetings,

RASHOMON 

[Hitch]

Well this was a pleasant surprise and a pleasure to read. A well thought out piece. I agree with everything being said here, not much else to add. I just wanted to reiterate one of your points.

 

This is why a map's design is super important, it can dictate how hard a map is. There are certain maps I hate playing as allies because of this. I remember we had that X-posed map on Beg2 a few weeks ago, that map is one of the hardest for allies because axis could just bomb the crap out of the tank barriers. You would literally spend the whole round just trying to destroy the barriers especially that last one. Brutal.

[GHARIB]

Good job @RASHOMON !

Very (very x2) nice post. 

[Bryan]

M@dJ0c|< here that was a really well written piece there young Sir.

Very well thought through.

[Shaun Reynolds]

An absolute pleasure to read, thank you for your time and effort in this post bravo.

[++Sl@yer]

Just read this post. Good read for admins and regulars alike.  You have valid points and the map descriptions help even the most novice of players.  Im glad to see you adding your knowledge to the site Rashomon. Im looking forward to ou4r sniping wars.  I 0always appreciated the fact you shared some of your moments and it actually helped me out. See you on the servers. 

Edited December 11, 2020 by Sl@yer

[-=HipKat=-]

On 11/29/2020 at 10:27 AM, RASHOMON said:

3. It doesn't have to do with team kill scores either.

When a player swaps team, he brings with him his kill count making it hard to keep track of the situation from the beginning. Second, don't be fooled by even team scores. If a very dominant attacking team has to cover a lot of ground from their spawn to the fighting points near objective and/or defending team's spawn point, they'll get less kills in comparison with what they should be rewarded from being the stronger team. In Bremen (before allies get CP), allies come a long way to fight for CP-card-truck repair and escort. Therefore, axis have a lot to shoot at. If the Allies are stronger, they'll choke Axis in their courtyard making it an unfair game but axis will get a lot of kill in return. But it will not be enough to overcome the Allies waves. They kill a lot but more are coming. Therefore blindly saying: "look, we are playing Caen and the score is 300/310, it means the game is fair" does not hold much value. In Caen, Axis (the attacking team) have to cover a lot of ground to get to Allies spawn/obj. So they'll get less kills than Allies despite surrounding them quite easily due to the nature of the map. However, the objective is easy to defend (flamethrower, nade spawns, mobile, arty outside, close Allies spawn) therefore it creates tricky situations where Axis easily dominate Allies while Allies successfully defend their obj because it's easier than on other maps (simiarly to Goldrush). It makes it really hard to tell whether teams need proper balance or not: Axis never bring the obj to the boat but they often squeeze Allies due to map setting rather than only having stronger players.

 

But, what about when one team is ahead by 200 pts, has an extra player over the other team and is not winning the objective but obviously winning the battles? Is there a need to balance teams there??

 

2nd, 1 team is slightly ahead and has one the best players on the server, player count is even, another top skilled player joins that same team and the score rapidly get way apart?? Should that new player be made to join the team that's now getting smashed since he was the last one to join the server? or is that covered here?

 

Last point, fraggers. I'm talking about rate players, rambo medics, call them whatever you want. They are a variable that is rather easily controlable. These players, while not caring at all about the obj, have a great influence over the general course of a map for the mere reason that they kill a lot of players. This is why it is mandatory to try having an even number of fraggers on each team (I think FA does a great job with this (Bond gets a pass for some reason but that's not the point :P), they often try to unstack fraggers from one team and things get more balanced very quickly because if both teams have fraggers, the fighting points (tm) are located around the acceptable central part of the map). Provided that both teams have a similar number of players going for objective and defending it, you can rather easily tell how the map will swing based on the number of fraggers (and their identity, of course, all fraggers aren't equal) per team. Sometimes, 1 more fragger in a team will destabilize a map's balance.

Edited March 1, 2021 by -=HipKat=-

[ElEl]

17 minutes ago, -=HipKat=- said:

But, what about when one team is ahead by 200 pts, has an extra player over the other team and is not winning the objective but obviously winning the battles? Is there a need to balance teams there??

Here you're referring to the Caen game we played earlier I think. Let's look at the scores from the middle of the game where you started complaining about Allies being the stronger team:

 

 

As someone who was a high level admin for this clan and someone who literally wrote the admin guide on balancing teams on our wiki this is what I see:

Axis have the advantage in kills but not damage given. That's probably because kikuss is playing panzer so take away that and Axis have a strong lead in terms of damage given, ~28k to 22k. Now let's look at the highest fraggers of each team. Axis have Ex0hol, whatever and DeathSIde all with a large amount of kills and each with about a 2:1 kill ratio. It's fair to say they're medic fraggers and decent players.

Now look at Allies. The only player with more than 20 kills is me. Imagine If I were to go spec or join Axis, then Allies would completely fall apart. If any team here has the advantage then that would be Axis, clear as day. Allies have FOUR players with more deaths than kills. The only thing Allies are leading in is the score column and that's probably because of the panzer getting insane XP per kill. In terms of the objective, Allies were struggling hard to defend and we eventually lost.

 

You started crying about how you're down 200 points when that score is worthless in terms of telling which team is stacked. You then went on to say an Allied player should move over to Axis, despite me and Mr*Brightside telling you that teams favoured Axis.

It's fair to assume that you must be smoking crack.  I would like to know why you started crying about these teams being in favour of Allies given these things I've said.

 

Here's the scores at the end of the map as well:

Wow Allies are so stacked 👌.

 

30 minutes ago, -=HipKat=- said:

2nd, 1 team is slightly ahead and has one the best players on the server, player count is even, another top skilled player joins that same team and the score rapidly get way apart?? Should that new player be made to join the team that's now getting smashed since he was the last one to join the server?

Here I think you're talking about Frostbite so let's go over that.

 

You claim that scores were "way apart" after Achilles joined Allies right?

 

Doesn't look like it to me. These are the scores the moment Achilles moved to Axis because you started talking bullshit. 133+9 = 142. 151-9=142. That's pretty even considering Allies were effectively down 1 player the first half of the game because one of our teammates was playing mortar... on Frostbite. I'm still not sure where the scores are "way apart" but whatever. Let's talk about the pace of the match. 

Axis were destroying Allies. 4 of them camping outside of our spawn at one point just raking in kills. Achilles was right to join Allies as we needed help more at the time.

 

Now the third map, Italy.

Here are the scores:

I'll leave this as an exercise for you so that you can learn to break it down like I have. As a hint, you should come to the conclusion that this is reasonably balanced in terms of player skill.

 

 

 

When I determine team balance I look at Kills, Deaths, Damage Given, Eff (specifically how many people have less than 50 as that means more deaths than kills), the top players of each team, the pace of the objective, if any team is getting destroyed outside of their spawn and also which player would be best placed on the other team to get a better balance. On Jay2 I'd argue the most important of these is the top players on each team as 2 medic fraggers can easily roll a full team on this server.

 

It looks to me like the only thing you base team balance on is the Score column. This is insane. Then you've got the gall to spread that misinformation about team balance which only f***s it up more. If it's not even just me telling you you're wrong then you should listen, myself, Mr*Brightside and DeathSIde were telling you on Caen but you refused to hear any of it. This is far from the first time I've had to point out that you're spreading false information regarding team balance which is why I lost my patience with you today.

Say less 🙃.

 

[-=HipKat=-]

Actually, I said scores were slightly apart when Achilles  joined and the middle of the map on Caen is when I joined.  I never said anything about scores during Italy, but thanks for uncovering the anonymous question I was trying to ask

In the heat of the game, going through multiple scenarios to try and hypothesize which team is or isn't unbalanced is ridiculous. It's pretty simple, actually. 1 team has an extra player and is 200 pts ahead, common sense says that team is unbalanced in their favor. Also, as @RASHOMON pointed out, is looking at the skill level of players, or fraggers. 

 

Now, if I was trying to call you out, I would have, so try not to take it so personally, but anytime I try to keep teams balanced and someone complains, it's always you and only you - this never happens when you're not on the server,  and always when you're on the stacked team. Every time. I'm old. I pay attention to things like that.

No, I don't have "proofs" because I didn't come here to get into that. 

 

Bottom line is, I'm trying to keep teams even. If you have any doubts, talk to Game, Shatte, Letdown, etc about how I'm normally the first player to move and almost always without being asked because I try and keep an eye on it. If I'm doing it wrong, at least I'm fkn trying. Not "crying". 

 

There are 2 regulars I can't stand to see show up and most times I just leave and that's you and Cake who both think it's jump my shit time when you come on. Thank GOD he stays off Jay 2 almost all the time. Seriously, GTFO my back.

 

Now, since you want to throw quotes around, instead of the times you've whined on here about being an admin, I'll just leave this here instead;

 

Quote

Team balance on Jay2 is difficult because of the skill level variance, it's unfortunate but I think the best way to deal with it is to get more players on the server.

Playing on Jay2 as an admin was miserable for me. When I'm on a team and people I'm playing against decide to leave, a lot of the times if I moved over scores would be heavily skewed in their favour and I rarely see regulars want to do anything about it. It usually ends with me going spec and that's my fun ruined. If I swap I'll just get accused of stacking or whatever. It's a big problem especially with all these people that will only play x team or only play if they're on the same team as their friend.

Edited March 1, 2021 by -=HipKat=-

[Dink the Clown]

Very good post and also such a great topic that happens all the time.   I myself usually have a difficult time figuring out what to do or when to try to balance teams and usually have some one that is a nay sayer about who I have moved to balance the team (" NOT POINTING FINGERS"). I really appreciate this topic and also is helpful.    Top notch 👍

[Vice86]

@ElEl

@-=HipKat=-

 

Easy guys,...

You both seem very angry on each other. Maybee take your time and try to settle it someday when some grass is grown over.

From now on you wont make any profit from talking to each other as it seems.

Maybee you take your dispute out of public and take it to private discord if you "have to" settle it. Otherwise disagree to disagree is always an option.

 

I know i have no right to interfeer with you both, so sorry for that.

 

With all due respect 

Vice86

[-=HipKat=-]

@Vice86 yeah, for sure.

 

I just made the post for clarification. I kept it anonymous for a reason not mentioning any names or any particular maps.

[PikeKiller]

Nice, very useful information. Great job.

[captnconcrete]

el! i love u man...

 

hipkat .. ..  i love u too bud.

 

 this is a good write up .. i like it. no ones perfect.  there isnt any  one perfect way to even teams. 

 

u cant go soly off scores u cant go soly off playercount.  theres game progression.  how manyfraggers verse fraggers . an yadda yadda yadda. kill death counts . and xp gains.

also when certain players are on its pretty well pointless cuz they havent a clue.  skill level !!!! some ones always gonna win someones always gonna lose. no matter what u do . to keep it even.

 

 

 

 

Edited March 1, 2021 by captnconcrete

[ElEl]

15 hours ago, -=HipKat=- said:

Actually, I said scores were slightly apart

 

17 hours ago, -=HipKat=- said:

2nd, 1 team is slightly ahead and has one the best players on the server, player count is even, another top skilled player joins that same team and the score

 

17 hours ago, -=HipKat=- said:

rapidly get way apart

 

17 hours ago, -=HipKat=- said:

way apart

Ok. 🙂

 

16 hours ago, -=HipKat=- said:

It's pretty simple, actually. 1 team has an extra player and is 200 pts ahead, common sense says that team is unbalanced in their favor

I've disproven this in my previous post.

 

16 hours ago, -=HipKat=- said:

looking at the skill level of players, or fraggers. 

Yep that's exactly what I did too and I came to the conclusion that neither of the 3 games you were here for was I on the stacked team. Maybe someone else could check as well.

 

16 hours ago, -=HipKat=- said:

Now, if I was trying to call you out, I would have, so try not to take it so personally, but anytime I try to keep teams balanced and someone complains, it's always you and only you - this never happens when you're not on the server,  and always when you're on the stacked team. Every time. I'm old. I pay attention to things like that.

No, I don't have "proofs" because I didn't come here to get into that. 

You did call me out.

I would not have gone to such lengths to disprove this otherwise. I am rightfully pissed at being called a stacker when I do so much to try keep things even.

 

Yes I point out when you're falsely claiming that the teams are unbalanced or are skewed in the favour of the team you're not on. You do this a lot. Three people told you during the game that you were wrong and you refused to listen. If three people told me I was wrong about something I would reconsider or at least find evidence to prove my case. You've done neither. I don't know why I'm wasting my time on you spelling it out. I asked you to make a post because you were accusing me of stacking and I have proof to the contrary. You call me a stacker and can't show me anything to prove it other than one column of scores, a practically useless column, being in my team's favour while none of the others are.

16 hours ago, -=HipKat=- said:

If I'm doing it wrong, at least I'm fkn trying.

I wouldn't have a problem with this if you actually listened to what an experienced admin is telling you regarding team balance. You just think you know everything because of an XP earned column. What makes it worse is you're actively making teams worse by spreading this misinformation in the chat, causing further imbalance.

 

16 hours ago, -=HipKat=- said:

always when you're on the stacked team.

Show me in the screenshots I've provided where I am on ANY of those stacked teams. As I pointed out I was against all of the high fraggers as well and my kills make up the largest majority of my team's kills. If you're seriously suggesting that I should have swapped teams in any of those 3 maps then you are wrong. You even quoted my other post about why I can't just swap teams so easily to balance things out. I'm not even sure why you quoted that, did you think that would help your argument? 

 

50 minutes ago, -=HipKat=- said:

I just made the post for clarification. I kept it anonymous for a reason not mentioning any names or any particular maps.

You loaded those questions in your favour to prove that you were right. Those scenarios you made up were not at all what happened in any of those games we played and I proved this was the case.

 

 

Call me a stacker one more time without providing proof and I will just mute you.