ET Rule Clarification

[-=HipKat=-]

This is concerning evening teams.

 

On Jay 2, I joined the server, School was on with about 10 mins remaining.

Teams were even players, Allies had Obj, but I don't know when they got it. Many times the objective gets taken WAY early in the game by probably jumping thought the upper window outside Axis spawn, maybe??

 

Anyway, Axis was up by about 500 kills so I joined Allies, but Axis was just dominating. No one from Allies could get even close to the truck or the barrier to advance the obj.

At 600+ Kills I asked for someone to move to Allies but Gameplan said that since Allies had obj and an extra player, that there was no reason to move. 

So, that's my question, even is 1 team has the obj, but has no ability to advance, because the defending team is dominating and up by so far (Over 750 kills at map end) , does that over rule the /Scores rule for keeping teams even?? 

I guess I'm just not clear on how the rule works.

 

 

[!MX]

Well, to me, even allies with obj and extra time to finish the map, they couldn't becoz axis were too strong, in that case i would join allies. And some cases, it's okay to have 2 extra players to get obj done

 

 

Same case in italy. Allies get truck with 2 golds inside, however, axis too strong (team and scores) and axis own cp, with good defense, no chance to allies victory. 

 

I don't know so much about school, but in that case as i said, i would join allies instead axis. 

Edited January 2, 2021 by !MX

[Cross Marian]

Yeah, it's a grey area in my opinion.

 

Basically when we try to evaluate team balance, we take these factors into account :

1. /Scores 

2. !Howfair

3. Number of players on each team

4. Map progression

5. Your own knowledge of each player's skill level

 

 

If we apply these to your particular case here:

1. /Scores >> largely in favor of Axis

2. !Howfair >> ?? I don't know, but it's not the most important factor anyway.

3. Number of players on each team >> barely in favor of Allies (only 1 extra)

4. Map progression >> balanced (10min to go when obj is already in truck is acceptable)

5. Your own knowledge of each player's skill level >> ?? I don't know since I'm not a regular on Jay2, but I assume it was in favor of Axis.

 

So in such a case, I agree with MX, giving Allies 2 extra players would have been ok, and I would have probably joined Allies too.

 

However, let's not forget about map size and bottlenecks.

If you play a small map with 1 or 2 chokepoints, and you have a 11 versus 11 players.... well you will probably end up with scores largely in favor of the defending team. Which is the case here.

 

To answer your question, we don't have a clear rule that can be applied to every situation. We have guidelines and different factors to take into account to try and keep games more or less balanced.

But every situation is different, and situations evolve during a map too (with players leaving, switching, connecting, etc).

 

 

Edited January 2, 2021 by Cross Marian

[RASHOMON]

1 hour ago, Cross Marian said:

Yeah, it's a grey area in my opinion.

 

Basically when we try to evaluate team balance, we take these factors into account :

1. /Scores 

2. !Howfair

3. Number of players on each team

4. Map progression

5. Your own knowledge of each player's skill level

 

 

If we apply these to your particular case here:

1. /Scores >> largely in favor of Axis

2. !Howfair >> ?? I don't know, but it's not the most important factor anyway.

3. Number of players on each team >> barely in favor of Allies (only 1 extra)

4. Map progression >> balanced (10min to go when obj is already in truck is acceptable)

5. Your own knowledge of each player's skill level >> ?? I don't know since I'm not a regular on Jay2, but I assume it was in favor of Axis.

 

So in such a case, I agree with MX, giving Allies 2 extra players would have been ok, and I would have probably joined Allies too.

 

However, let's not forget about map size and bottlenecks.

If you play a small map with 1 or 2 chokepoints, and you have a 11 versus 11 players.... well you will probably end up with scores largely in favor of the defending team. Which is the case here.

 

To answer your question, we don't have a clear rule that can be applied to every situation. We have guidelines and different factors to take into account to try and keep games more or less balanced.

But every situation is different, and situations evolve during a map too (with players leaving, switching, connecting, etc).

 

 

 

Shameless plug: this piece of info might be useful:

https://fearless-assassins.com/forums/topic/120643-on-the-hard-job-of-team-balancing-misconceptions-hints-to-look-for-mistakes-to-avoid/

[captnconcrete]

would like to clear something up here as i read this...

 

ok u posted a screen shot of the /scores ....

 

u say up over 500 kills up to 750 kills.

 

this is wrong... thats the score.. difference not kill diff. ok axis has 453 kills and 247 deaths.allies has266 kills and 360 deaths

 

so you would take  453

                             -266 

                              187  this is the diff in kills not 500 to 750 kill diff.

 

but yes there is alot more factors in even teams then a /scores chart!

 

 

[ElEl]

Can you post the demo?

Also as Captn pointed out the maths there is interesting. Up by 500 kills??

 

Either way if I was axis and scores were that bad I would ask to swap teams with someone, maybe an admin could've asked one of the higher fraggers to swap to allies as well. ~200 kills difference is the most important factor for balancing there as the gap is only going to get bigger considering how difficult it is for allies to get to the obj. I don't understand the argument of having done the first part of the objective in 10 minutes if it's literally impossible to get anywhere near the final part. 700 XP difference should also be a massive red flag that teams are f***ed and should be balanced. This is from the wiki:

 

Quote

When holding Tab you can also see a number in square brackets at the top of the scoreboard (if you have XP showing). This number shows how much XP the team has earned since the start of the map. For example, Allies could 450 XP and Axis could have 1000 XP. This shows that Axis are overpowering Allies and something should be done about the teams.

 

[-=HipKat=-]

14 hours ago, captnconcrete said:

would like to clear something up here as i read this...

 

ok u posted a screen shot of the /scores ....

 

u say up over 500 kills up to 750 kills.

 

this is wrong... thats the score.. difference not kill diff. ok axis has 453 kills and 247 deaths.allies has266 kills and 360 deaths

 

so you would take  453

                             -266 

                              187  this is the diff in kills not 500 to 750 kill diff.

 

but yes there is alot more factors in even teams then a /scores chart!

 

 

I'm confused I guess on Points vs Kills when I do /scores

[-=HipKat=-]

11 hours ago, ElEl said:

Can you post the demo?

Also as Captn pointed out the maths there is interesting. Up by 500 kills??

 

Either way if I was axis and scores were that bad I would ask to swap teams with someone, maybe an admin could've asked one of the higher fraggers to swap to allies as well. ~200 kills difference is the most important factor for balancing there as the gap is only going to get bigger considering how difficult it is for allies to get to the obj. I don't understand the argument of having done the first part of the objective in 10 minutes if it's literally impossible to get anywhere near the final part. 700 XP difference should also be a massive red flag that teams are f***ed and should be balanced. This is from the wiki:

 

 

Unfortunately, I don't have the demo. When I took the screenshot, I quit without saving the demo I normally make on every map

 

When holding Tab you can also see a number in square brackets at the top of the scoreboard (if you have XP showing). This number shows how much XP the team has earned since the start of the map. For example, Allies could 450 XP and Axis could have 1000 XP. This shows that Axis are overpowering Allies and something should be done about the teams.

This is something, crazy, I never knew - what those numbers were. Thanks for that!!

Edited January 3, 2021 by -=HipKat=-

[captnconcrete]

3 minutes ago, -=HipKat=- said:

I'm confused I guess on Points vs Kills when I do /scores

first two are kills and deaths . last one is xp .earned in map. i also look at efficiency and damage given and damage received when im looking at it for team reasons.

[-=HipKat=-]

1 minute ago, captnconcrete said:

first two are kills and deaths . last one is xp .earned in map. i also look at efficiency and damage given and damage received when im looking at it for team reasons.

Ahh, cool! I never paid attention to those before, just the overall scores

[Gameplan]

He is referring to XP (score) being up hundreds. It was true, I checked scores multiple times throughout the map and when he brought it up, Axis was up scores and kills. Kills by about 60, possibly, don't remember exactly.  

 

What is not mentioned, and Hipkat joined late, is Allies got the object after they busted through the front door with the tank. They barreled through the first tank barrier with little resistance and the tank made it to the front door after a few disables. They stole the obj within 10 minutes and again broke through the truck barrier with little resistance (1 plant and truck through). When that happened, more joined Axis and for about 18 minutes they only needed to get the truck up the ramp. When he complained of even teams, there was still 10 minutes left. Had the tables been turned, and teams "evened" the map would have been over in less than 15 minutes.

 

Another misrepresentation is Allies were not able to get to the truck. The 3 Sky guys were on and Solberg (Don) got there multiple times along with a few others. Axis stood strong and defended the ramp and the truck only needed to get a few more feet. I was literally at the top of the ramp with my back against the garage door and the front bumper in my face at the end. It doesn't get much closer than that and IMO, it was a great fight with the map going either way. 

 

In summary, it may have been tough on allies at the end, but was tough on Axis during the first half. Overall, it was as close as it could get, but shouldn't the map be pretty close either way for a good experience for both sides? 

 

One more thing, as previously mentioned, there were great obj players on Allies and that can counterbalance the other team playing for kills/scores. When the Sky guys are on offense, it's often very hard to defend the obj no matter how many kills the other team has.

 

Finally, even teams is not an exact science. We do our best and may have differing opinions. We have every right to express them, but at the end of the day it's a game, should be treated accordingly and we should move on and get back to it. What I loved about sports, is the last play, last hole or last anything is soon forgotten. Learn and move on.

Edited January 3, 2021 by Gameplan

[ElEl]

9 hours ago, -=HipKat=- said:

Unfortunately, I don't have the demo. When I took the screenshot, I quit without saving the demo I normally make on every map

 

Demos auto save when you quit, you don't need to stop recording them. It should still be in your Jaymod/demos folder.

 

9 hours ago, -=HipKat=- said:

I'm confused I guess on Points vs Kills when I do /scores

From left to right:

Quote

The scores command brings up 2 tables, one for Allies and one for Axis. Each row shows a different player and each column shows statistics. The columns from left to right are: Players, Kills, Deaths, Suicides, Team Kills, Efficiency, Game Points, Damage Given, Damage Received, Team Damage Given, Team Damage Received and Score.

On Jaymod I guess it doesn't have Team Damage Received 🤷‍♂️

[-=HipKat=-]

3 hours ago, ElEl said:

Demos auto save when you quit, you don't need to stop recording them. It should still be in your Jaymod/demos folder.

 

From left to right:

On Jaymod I guess it doesn't have Team Damage Received 🤷‍♂️

If the map ends, it autosaves. If you quit, it doesn't always save. Redbaird confirmed this  on an admin abuse thread where I  didn't have the demo a year or so ago

Edited January 4, 2021 by -=HipKat=-

[ElEl]

2 hours ago, -=HipKat=- said:

If the map ends, it autosaves. If you quit, it doesn't always save. Redbaird confirmed this  on an admin abuse thread where I  didn't have the demo a year or so ago

This is the first I've ever heard of this, whenever I quit the demo is always there. Can you check your demo folder?

[-=HipKat=-]

18 hours ago, ElEl said:

This is the first I've ever heard of this, whenever I quit the demo is always there. Can you check your demo folder?

YEah, it's a "glitch" for lack of a better word. And no, it's not in there. I have my CFG set to demo every map and when the map ends, in console, you can see it says it stopped recording. I have to empty that folder every few weeks, b8ut they save by map name, in order by time saved

Edited January 4, 2021 by -=HipKat=-