ET SILENT #1 Next Map vote abuse

[memento mori]

Lately, one of your admins in particular (Icicel) has been calling "next map" votes the moment he joins or the moment a map is voted on when he doesn't like it and no other admins are present. This has happened several times.

 

Now, you could argue that it's a vote so therefore it's democratic if the vote gets passed. Problem with that is, firstly, I actually use a windows partition on a mac to play ET and the F keys don't work. Secondly, most players don't end up voting anyway. When Icicel calls these votes, even if 3 people voted for a prior map, you wind up with 2-3 people voting total. Basically, the person calling "next map" knows that the people who don't like the map will be eager to vote while the other players who either like or don't mind the map are likely too apathetic to do anything.

 

And mind you, these votes are not called when lots of players are complaining or there is a glitch in the map that makes it impossible to play or finish. I also have the ability to call "next map" votes, but I only do when no other players are playing and it's on a map I don't care for. Since I'm the only one playing, nobody will mind if I skip a map. If I log on and someone's playing a map I don't like, I either wait until it's over or leave. Icicel logs on, joins the game, an 5 seconds later calls a vote, even if you're in the middle of a map and nobody is complaining. That is some selfish bullshit and the guy has done it numerous times. Even yesterday we voted for Warbell, and the moment the map started he called a "next map" vote because it's not what he wanted to play. Sorry, but I was under the impression the server was for players, and that admins are there solely to control and facilitate gameplay, not conform gameplay to everything they want. Apparently if players vote to play a map, if Icicel doesn't like it, he will call a vote in a matter of seconds and hope to squeeze out a cheap "majority".

 

I suggest making "next map" votes similar to an old server I used to play on where you needed a high percentage of the players currently playing to vote for it to even matter. If 7 guys are playing and 2 people vote, the vote dies. If people really hate the map and are complaining and you get 6 or 7 votes and it passes, no problem with that at all. The way it's currently set up, you just enable selfish players and admins to abuse that privilege knowing that more often than not they're going to get their way. I know Icicel has been confronted by another admin over this same thing and sees no issue with such conduct, amongst other very petty conduct. I suppose if nobody else here does, I may also have to find another server to frequent. I respect the rules and the objective/teamplay when I'm on. It doesn't particularly thrill me when your admins try to use their privileges solely for themselves.

 

Respectfully.

[dasp]

8 hours ago, memento mori said:

Lately, one of your admins in particular (Icicel) has been calling "next map" votes the moment he joins or the moment a map is voted on when he doesn't like it and no other admins are present. This has happened several times.

 

Now, you could argue that it's a vote so therefore it's democratic if the vote gets passed. Problem with that is, firstly, I actually use a windows partition on a mac to play ET and the F keys don't work. Secondly, most players don't end up voting anyway. When Icicel calls these votes, even if 3 people voted for a prior map, you wind up with 2-3 people voting total. Basically, the person calling "next map" knows that the people who don't like the map will be eager to vote while the other players who either like or don't mind the map are likely too apathetic to do anything.

 

And mind you, these votes are not called when lots of players are complaining or there is a glitch in the map that makes it impossible to play or finish. I also have the ability to call "next map" votes, but I only do when no other players are playing and it's on a map I don't care for. Since I'm the only one playing, nobody will mind if I skip a map. If I log on and someone's playing a map I don't like, I either wait until it's over or leave. Icicel logs on, joins the game, an 5 seconds later calls a vote, even if you're in the middle of a map and nobody is complaining. That is some selfish bullshit and the guy has done it numerous times. Even yesterday we voted for Warbell, and the moment the map started he called a "next map" vote because it's not what he wanted to play. Sorry, but I was under the impression the server was for players, and that admins are there solely to control and facilitate gameplay, not conform gameplay to everything they want. Apparently if players vote to play a map, if Icicel doesn't like it, he will call a vote in a matter of seconds and hope to squeeze out a cheap "majority".

 

I suggest making "next map" votes similar to an old server I used to play on where you needed a high percentage of the players currently playing to vote for it to even matter. If 7 guys are playing and 2 people vote, the vote dies. If people really hate the map and are complaining and you get 6 or 7 votes and it passes, no problem with that at all. The way it's currently set up, you just enable selfish players and admins to abuse that privilege knowing that more often than not they're going to get their way. I know Icicel has been confronted by another admin over this same thing and sees no issue with such conduct, amongst other very petty conduct. I suppose if nobody else here does, I may also have to find another server to frequent. I respect the rules and the objective/teamplay when I'm on. It doesn't particularly thrill me when your admins try to use their privileges solely for themselves.

 

Respectfully.

 

I think this is in the wrong section, maybe @Staff can fix it. @Leatherface @CheepHeep

Edited March 14, 2020 by dasp

[CheepHeep]

I'm satisfied this section is fine for this topic since the main theme is about adjusting the nextmap voting pass criteria and isn't really a dig at a single admin although icicelz was named, I believe it was just used as an example. I may be wrong but I think the direction this topic will go is in the direction of a discussion rather than a complaint against an admin. If I end up being wrong though, it can always be moved.

 

Regarding the topic, there isn't currently any guidelines on how nextmap voting can be used although we'd like people to use common sense, it sometimes will end up with dissatisfaction from people if its used incorrectly in their eyes. So perhaps making some official guidelines for its use could prevent this in the future. I personally use callvote nextmap if a map that i know will kill the server is voted and only got voted because barely anyone voted during intermission. I do agree, however, that the passing criteria needs adjusting as currently i believe it only needs to be above 50% - by what i've seen, I don't know if thats the actual setting.

 

Either way, perhaps raising it to 75% to pass with 65% of the people online having voted. The reason I stated 65% and not higher is because a value too higher will end up with a vote never being able to win as not everyone will  bother voting and don't care whether a vote is passed - usually those that really want to play the map will vote no and those that really dont will vote yes, the rest don't mind and won't vote.  I think if 65% vote in total and 75% vote to pass - then that should be valid. Ex: 20 players online -  13 cast their votes - about 10 of those need to vote yes for the vote to pass. 10 - 3 vote should pass imo. 

 

Another criteria for me is that after 2-3 minutes, the nextmap voting option should be disabled or at least not allowed to be used.

 

A few exceptions would be:
1. Map glitching - Map cant progress

2. Majority of players asking for next map - perhaps people left or not enough people online and map is too big for example

 

Just some brainstorming. 

 

PS. The current pass criteria im referring to is for HC  - I believe the servers that we run dont all have the same settings regarding votes. 

Edited March 14, 2020 by CheepHeep

[dasp]

6 minutes ago, CheepHeep said:

I'm satisfied this section is fine for this topic since the main theme is about adjusting the nextmap voting pass criteria and isn't really a dig at a single admin although icicelz was named, I believe it was just used as an example. I may be wrong but I think the direction this topic will go is in the direction of a discussion rather than a complaint against an admin. If I end up being wrong though, it can always be moved.

 

Good point.

 

7 minutes ago, CheepHeep said:

2. Majority of players asking for next map - perhaps people left or not enough people online and map is too big for example

 

This happen quite a lot in jay2, and even if I call nextmap or any other player, and everybody votes Yes, it still doesn't pass the vote. I don't know if it has to do with the bots, or if the vote system is not working on that server.

I also see a lot of people leaving because of "bad" maps, I know you will always have that, but is quite annoying that you can't vote for nextmap, you can, but it won't work.

[Sleestak]

@memento mori has pm'd me about this particular admin yes Icicelz calling votes for map changes very early in the new map. I believe Memento is upset that at the end of the previous map voting occurs

then the map is loaded based on the votes only to be changed and may look to be changed by that admin not wanting to play that particular map. I have noticed twice where a vote was called by Icicelz to change the map that was just voted on.

I was kinda confused myself as to why a new map vote was called right after the current map was just voted on and asked Icicelz thru admin chat why he/she called that vote?

 

@CheepHeep I agree with some of these ideas to possibly resolve said issue. I personally think a map should stay where it was voted on at the end of the previous map. Just thought I would toss in my 2 cents seeing how I was there with Memento & Icicelz a few times this has happened. 

[L3ftY.]

It would be considered abuse in some way by an admin if that admin continually called for voting another map. It's more abuse of their given authority to override everyone else's voted map of choice.

 

The voting system is in place to allow players to democratically chose the next map. After that map starts, calling for another vote for a new map seems redundant since the majority chose that map moments ago.

 

Perhaps @iCiCeLzz can shed some light here as well.

[memento mori]

Worth pointing out that yesterday iCiCeLz said he pays no attention to objective and just frags. He's free to do that, but he's calling next map votes the moment he joins, regardless of the votes and players who may enjoy the objectives of the map so that he can get a different map he prefers fragging on that may be less favorable to objective players.

 

And yes, this wasn't meant as a sole complaint about iCiCeLz, but the use of that function which allows someone to easily abuse that privilege, as iCiCeLz has been thoroughly demonstrating over the past couple weeks. I honestly couldn't say I've noticed him do this earlier so I can't speak to if he has or this is a new thing. He also clearly doesn't care since just moments ago I was on the server with him and said he read this thread and that I was "crying". Regardless, a moderately higher threshold for votes passing would be something, or clear indication to admins of when its use is appropriate.

 

Appreciate the constructive responses.

Edited March 15, 2020 by memento mori

[iCiCeLzz]

Hey all sorry for the late response the only reason I voted to skip the map is because it was a huge map and like memento said there was a few amount of players. I voted to skip the map because it didn't  make sense to play such a big map with mostly bots and I didn't think it was wrong to vote when other players obviously agreed to skip it as well. 

 

My understanding is that if you don't vote for a map during rotations due to afk, bathroom breaks, etc you are allowed to vote to skip the map because ofc its not only my vote that passes it which clearly means people were either afk or weren't paying attention to map votes.

 

As for not playing obj that is my personal preference I play the game by the rules and respect my peers if I don't like to play obj I don't think I should be hounded for that. Memento seems to clash heads with me constantly because I don't play obj and I vote to skip a map which to me doesn't make sense. Going forward I will take the appropriate actions and mute or warn when he disrespects me etc & situations like this may of been avoided and that is my fault I should've took action.

 

Kindly advise me if I am doing anything wrong which I don't believe I am. @CheepHeep @L3ftY. @Sleestak

[memento mori]

3 hours ago, iCiCeLzz said:

Hey all sorry for the late response the only reason I voted to skip the map is because it was a huge map and like memento said there was a few amount of players. I voted to skip the map because it didn't  make sense to play such a big map with mostly bots and I didn't think it was wrong to vote when other players obviously agreed to skip it as well. 

 

My understanding is that if you don't vote for a map during rotations due to afk, bathroom breaks, etc you are allowed to vote to skip the map because ofc its not only my vote that passes it which clearly means people were either afk or weren't paying attention to map votes.

 

As for not playing obj that is my personal preference I play the game by the rules and respect my peers if I don't like to play obj I don't think I should be hounded for that. Memento seems to clash heads with me constantly because I don't play obj and I vote to skip a map which to me doesn't make sense. Going forward I will take the appropriate actions and mute or warn when he disrespects me etc & situations like this may of been avoided and that is my fault I should've took action.

 

Kindly advise me if I am doing anything wrong which I don't believe I am. @CheepHeep @L3ftY. @Sleestak

You've misrepresented a number of things with this post:

 

- The first time I recall you doing this was on Glider. It is a big map but there were 10-15 people playing at the time in the middle of the map without a single complaint. You joined and 2 seconds later called a vote which barely passed after only a handful of people voted. Nobody "obviously agreed", you called a vote on a map you didn't like solely because you didn't want to play it.

 

- If being AFK for map voting means you can just call a vote, why not call a vote in the beginning of every map always? I'd guess that less than 50% of players actually vote for the map, so by your logic every map should be voted to skip. IMO if you are AFK when map voting comes up, you surrender your vote. And I honestly don't believe you were AFK, I believe the map you voted for didn't win and you got the one you didn't want, Warbell, for example, and you called a vote and conveniently the map that got the 2nd most votes just moments earlier won. Seems pretty coincidental.

 

- I pointed out that you not playing obj is your right, but you are voting to skip maps that players who like the objectives voted for so that you could get a map better for your fragging. And if you don't care about obj's, why skip the map at all? It's not like you can't frag away on any map.

- And yes, we've gone back and forth when I got tired of you pulling this crap on the server. Then you began barbing me back, which is fair play. None of our banter ever crossed the line into overt abuse or extreme hostility. You've even taken some chances to start trashing me while playing unprompted, so don't act like you're just an innocent bystander. As far as I'm concerned, if you're an equal participant and it doesn't rise to the level of extreme hostility there's no reason to mute anyone. You'd just be flexing your admin muscle similar to your nextmap voting right after we just voted.

[CheepHeep]

Alright, lets keep this on point topic guys.

 

@memento mori If you wish to complain about any abuse caused by an admin. You may do so in the relevant section of the forums. We do need proof though of what you are saying otherwise it ends up being a "he said she said" argument for which we'd rather not take sides on. 

 

For now lets get back to discussing what we can do to minimise the potential misuse of the nextmap vote. I do think that now this topic is opened for all to see that they are a little more cautious, myself included, about how its used and that its not used for personal satisfaction but for the betterment of the server and its regulars. 

[ogeazy]

I'm really not too open to seeing this adjusted. As it is, map voting is a simple majority process and can win out by 1 point. If people missed map voting bc they were busy chatting or were afk but they come back to a map that's going to drive players off the server then we should be able to skip the map. 

 

Iirc, there already is a time limit on when this can be called.

[iCiCeLzz]

I do recall calling a vote to skip the map but I don't remember how many players there were, besides if the server had 10-15 players in order for the map to skip they would've needed to vote yes because I don't have the level nor command !nextmap.

 

Afk between maps meaning getting snack, using bathroom, changing tv channel etc. I don't think you seem to understand anytime I have called a next map vote it has been very early on in the map because we have a time limit from when the map starts that you can't

vote to skip it.

 

I can frag on any map whether i play obj or not and once again if the vote passes that means more player want to skip the map rather then play it.

 

You say I flex my admin muscles yet I have never warned you, muted you, kicked you banned you etc so how exactly have I been flexing my admin muscles by using !finger & !aliases? please elaborate on that kind sir. 

 

Eager to hear the responses @memento mori

[memento mori]

3 hours ago, iCiCeLzz said:

You say I flex my admin muscles yet I have never warned you, muted you, kicked you banned you etc so how exactly have I been flexing my admin muscles by using !finger & !aliases? please elaborate on that kind sir. 

Read it again.

On 3/18/2020 at 5:16 PM, memento mori said:

As far as I'm concerned, if you're an equal participant and it doesn't rise to the level of extreme hostility there's no reason to mute anyone. You'd just be flexing your admin muscle similar to your nextmap voting right after we just voted.

Flexing admin muscles in reference to muting me for my part in banter you're an equal participant in, and sometimes start. The ability to call a "next map" vote requires levels, which is a privileged position. By calling it at your whims, IMO, that is abusing such a privilege. If players are complaining or nobody voted for a map, that's fair. However, you know full well those aren't the circumstances I'm referring to. I raised this thread so hopefully a discussion about limitations can be made clear.

[L3ftY.]

Well, due to potential endless and pointless sparring back and forth going nowhere, thIs topic is now locked for the sanity of the community.

 

 

@iCiCeLzz pls ensure proper use of your admin status at all times

 

@memento mori any further complaints should be made in Admin Abuse section

 

 

/locked 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 20, 2020 by L3ftY.