autoshuffle and autoput in jay3 ( beginners 1 )

[DFighter]

Hi guys want to put up a issue about some new features in jay3
 

I saw today in jay3 autoshuffle too but many people left after it
I dont think its really needed for jay3 since most of the time  admins are in the server that can use !putteam 
less angry players and often those who get putted have no problems with it or change teams themselves if possible.

 

also other problems came forward atleast how I experience it 
 

autoshuffle and autoput is not really good at this moment in jay3
in jay3 every map you get shuffled and 25 people changes teams after it and mostly it gets shuffled while its not needed.
autoputeam is oke but is it possible to give players more time to fix teams themselves before they get autoputted ? 
shuffle might do the trick for the time admins are not in server 01:00 am GTM +1 till 10 am GTM +1
but it generally causes more annoyingness around players then that it benefits.

 

what you guys think of these features do you like it as it is or would you rather see it removed or you have any suggestions how to improve this ?
I wonder what your opinions are about it tell me tell me and if needed or possible change it to a better situation unless you all like it ofcourse

[Ann!b@l]

looool Failed again!! This time in quoting..C'mon DF!!

[DFighter]

I only copied the text and added it in quoted notes  
not a fail it aint school 

[Xernicus]

I only copied the text and added it in quoted notes  

not a fail it aint school 

Hahaha. You did good. xD

 

I personally think the autoshuffle needs improvement.

 

Here's why

• It shuffles every map, and all players change teams (or at least most do, and that includes mostly regulars)
• It will shuffle in the middle of a map... (just let us use !put, that's too much)
• Even if the K/D ratio of each team is pretty much even... we still get a shuffle.

 

At the very least, maybe turning it to every 3 maps or so would make it much more tolerable.

 

That being said, I'm glad to see those team-stackers get pissed off.

[SunLight]

• It shuffles every map, and all players change teams (or at least most do, and that includes mostly regulars)

False. It doesn't shuffle every map, it shuffles if axis/allies kills in the previous map were unbalanced beyond a given threshold. Since on jay3 it's (nearly?) *always* unbalanced, it might happen that it shuffles every map, but it's a side effect of the fact that the server is permastacked 4ever

 

All players change teams because it's shuffled by kills, and if you put the top fragger in axis, then the second best must obviously go allies, etc. etc.

obviously lots of players will swap, but that's the point of a shuffle. A shuffle that changes nothing is not a shuffle. Actually more than a shuffle we should talk about balancing kills, by sorting players based on the kills they had in the previous map. Shuffle sounds more like random shuffle to me, but it's shorter, which is good

 

 

• It will shuffle in the middle of a map... (just let us use !put, that's too much)

 

False. It shuffles only in the warmup. Demo or it never happened

 

You are probably confusing shuffle (all players are shuffled by kills) with moving only a couple of players if teams are off (e.g. axis 10 players, allies 7), and even in that case players have 30 seconds to balance themselves. If even admins (and yes, I have seen over the years lots of FA admins who don't even bother joining the losing team - and the few people who know me know that I'm never a liar) don't want to balance during those 30 seconds, a couple of players will be switched. If they balance themselves nothing happens.

So it's not a 'shuffle'.

 

 

• Even if the K/D ratio of each team is pretty much even... we still get a shuffle.

 

Define 'pretty much even'. How many kills? The ratio can be changed but make an example of kills when it should shuffle and when it shouldn't.

 

At the very least, maybe turning it to every 3 maps or so would make it much more tolerable.

It can even be disabled. If players like to stack then good for them, but think about it: even with this thing on it's always stacked. I don't play on jay3 anymore because recently I have no time and I wanna play etpro again, but I monitored the server for 2 days in a row playing there a lot and I saw teams were still uneven even with shuffles every map. If you shuffle every 3 then you might as well turn it off.

As a side note, I didn't see that 'many people left after it' as DFighter says. There were comments but nobody left. And note that I checked the server when the change was still work in progress and there were a couple of bugs. And nobody left telling 'this shuffle sux I'm off' or similar things.

 

So guys, decide what you want, you can't have your piece of cake and eat it, you want balanced teams? Then autoshuffle is needed - and it's not even so powerful as it is now (teams were still uneven all the time). You don't want autoshuffle? Then disable it.

[DFighter]

• It shuffles every map, and all players change teams (or at least most do, and that includes mostly regulars)

False. It doesn't shuffle every map, it shuffles if axis/allies kills in the previous map were unbalanced beyond a given threshold

 

 

its true mainly cause of diffirent speed of connecting to server.

perhaps not every map but 95% it shuffles and generally cause players get disconnected for map download or just not a fast connection.

and when I had options putteam or shuffle back when I had those commands I always choose putteam better to annoy 1 or 2 then all players. ( unless teams are tremandously unbalanced.)

and about fair teams well you can't win every map mainly teams correct themselves and admins can give the last peace of help to fix them.

unless you prefer sean and bean as admins .. 

but anyway as it was already kinda ovious I dont like this feature atleast not as it is now.

and if I have to choose then disable or enable I prefer to disable it. ( atleast in this current state )

 

autoput on the other hand I think is a good feature I only would prefer to give it some more time to let players / admins fix teams themselves.

its always better to have 1 or 2 willing persons that change teams then someone that doesn't want to.

 

I feel in this current state it gives more problems then that it actually solve something atleast with autoshuffle.

autoputteam seems quite good actually only I would prefer to give people a little more time to fix them first themselves before they get autoputted.

[SunLight]

its true mainly cause of diffirent speed of connecting to server.

perhaps not every map but 95% it shuffles and generally cause players get disconnected for map download or just not a fast connection.

I said that shuffle is performed when in the previous map the final score was uneven by X%.

 

I don't see the link with players connecting or disconnecting. If you say:  since some players are slow to connect, and some go to spec during the warmup to stack better, the shuffle is only partial (because it can shuffle only those players who are in axis or allies 30 seconds after the warmup started) then I could understand, but this is not related with shuffling every map.

 

It shuffles if in the previous map the winning team had 25% kills more than the losing.

You can say, 25 is too low, set it to 30% or something then ok, but if it's set too high it could as well be disabled, because if you shuffle only if axis has 200 kills and allies 10 kills it doesn't happen so often.

 

but anyway as it was already kinda ovious I dont like this feature atleast not as it is now.

we didn't notice

 

I only would prefer to give it some more time to let players / admins fix teams themselves.

This is a specific request, so it's better than generic 'I don't like it'. And how much time should they have? 1 minute? 1 hour? teams are checked only every now and then so if the autoshuffle detects that they are uneven, then they have been for some seconds already. 30 extra seconds after the message (because when the msg appears teams were already uneven as I said) seems fair to me. But it can be set to 45 or so

[DFighter]

This is a specific request, so it's better than generic 'I don't like it'. And how much time should they have? 

 

You know how subtile im always am but here is the topic now

 

can you make a countdown with autoputteam like for example this schedule ?

warning 1 1.5 minutes till auto putteam

warning 2 1 minuten 

last warning 30 seconds

 

something like this ? or perhaps a little shorter warning 1 1 minute 2nd warning 30 seconds orso ?

 

and for autoshuffle score diffirence of 35% minimum ? we all know scores in jay3 are hard to regulate you have many Pure fraggers and objective players.

so not only kill / death ratio decides weather teams are fair amount of xp reached as team in a map also influence this a lot I think.

and generally when 1 or 2 of the better players switch teams you get right away a visa versa score on the other team

I like it when teams get fixed especially when admins are not around we can't be there 24 hours.

But don't get me wrong but now every map shuffle and 15 players that dont give shit and changes team isn't improving situation.

and then you can say kick teamstackers but we kinda create that situation and kicking every map 5 to 10 players well that doesn't benefit anyone.

 

[SunLight]

ok for the multiple messages, makes sense.

 

About the kills threshold, let's say 30%? 35% is like axis 100 kills allies 65 kills (difference = 35% of axis kills) 100-65 is really unbalanced imho. Of course it's normal that even teams made of equally skilled players will have differences in kills, due to defending vs attacking, etc. so you've got a point here. The higher it is set, the less frequent shuffles will be.

 

XP has no role here, because xp is not skill, and it has never been. How useful for the team balance can be someone who sits in spawn and gives packs, for example? People complain for unbalance when they die a lot, not when there is no engineer or medic. So I would say not counting XP is good the way it is. But it's just my opinion.

 

What's more I don't know if you noticed, but for 10 minutes after a shuffle players cannot join the other team (or the winning team, if they just connected and they didn't have a 'previous team' stored)

 

Is 10 minutes ok? should be more? less? ofc the fact that the server setting prevents players from joining a team with more players (even if it's the losing team) breaks this feature in some way... because if you were axis and axis is ultrastacked, then you go spec and wait till allies has 1 player more, and you can still stack...

 

[DFighter]

About the kills threshold, let's say 30%? 35% is like axis 100 kills allies 65 kills (difference = 35% of axis kills) 100-65 is really unbalanced imho

 

I kinda agree with you only the problem is with players like seti or sunlight or annibal for example this diffirence is very fast made.

but we can first try 30% and after it we can always see how that goes.

 

XP has no role here, because xp is not skill,

 

the best engineers dont have many kills they purely play objective atleast I did well you can get easy 6 xp for every time you repair a gate disarm a dynamite.

then I might get killed 50 times but hell they won't get the objective

so kills look really shitty but meanwhile I recieved 200 a 300 xp in 1 map simply by doing objective. ( that's what I mean with xp )

 

What's more I don't know if you noticed, but for 10 minutes after a shuffle players cannot join the other team 

 

would be a great feature but as far I can see this doesn't work or players wouldn't be able to switch teams after the autoshuffle. ??

can they evade it by going first to spec ? cause I see them switching teams everytime but 10 minutes is more as enough actually 5 minutes will do it probably but good to be on the safeside ( if it works ) and cant be evaded

 

[SunLight]

can they evade it by going first to spec ? cause I see them switching teams everytime but 10 minutes is more as enough actually 5 minutes will do it probably but good to be on the safeside ( if it works ) and cant be evaded

 

they can evade it because the server doesn't allow you to join a team if that team has more players. and if I block you from joining the other than you wouldn't be able to play

 

without that setting it would be impossible to evade it. but let's say they can't join their previous team so easily at least.

Edited February 25, 2014 by SunLight

[DFighter]

they can evade it because the server doesn't allow you to join a team if that team has more players. and if I block you from joining the other than you wouldn't be able to play

 

without that setting it would be impossible to evade it. but let's say they can't join their previous team so easily at least.

specteam is best team !!

but anyway if it only get's shuffled when it's really needed we probably only have once or twice or maybe 3 times a day this issue ( same as when admins used shuffle )

Then its not really an issue but now the whole day you get shuffled and whole day they keep stacking teams that can't be the goal if this

and I noticed 1 little issue with the autoputteam generally only lower skilled players get putted correct ? 

yesterday or the day before there was this newbie that got putted 6 times a map orso don't know if this just was unlucky coincident or not

[SunLight]

only lower skilled players get putted correct ?

you guessed right

 

but if it puts players with lots of kills, then it would unbalance and they would complain more. it's possible to add some randomness or a rule like 'if you got put once then you won't be put again'

[DFighter]

Yeah its was sad for this guy xD first time in server he get's putted everytime perhaps under certain amount xp or randomness would be fine

also another issue : P I just saw a autoshuffle and teams got shuffled that axis were 4 times better and nobody ( becides admins ) were able to fix it 
any idea or suggestion how that can be prevented too ?

[SunLight]

any idea or suggestion how that can be prevented too ?

hmm, you mean that they couldn't move because /team was blocked?

 

In general all automatic things are 'bad' because maybe a player got a lot of kills in a map (camping, etc.) but he/she is not able to get those kills again in a different situation and map. It's impossible to get skill from stats, even trackbase/sl fail at this.