Sincere Question About Balancing Teams

[-=HipKat=-]

Jay 1, Allies have 3 more than Axis and the map is Marrakech, which Allies win often.

Raider and db are on Allies

An FA Admin, also on Allies moves Smart to Axis to balance.

 

That's not the best example of balancing teams, correct?

 

And if the admin or anyone knows the event PLEASE don't call out the admin, that's not the point I'm trying to make or to point fingers.

 

Just a question to know if my view is the best way to approach it or not

[MosesIsComingLookBusy]

did you do /scores?
Did you check for progression of map?
Did you look for the amount of raters, obj players, ego players, new players on each team?
How many mintues left?
Which stage of the map?
Is allies struggling getting to obj?
You only mention 2 players on one team, what did the other team have?
Is allies steamrolling?
Is allies working as a team?
Is axis working as a team?
Are axis defending?
Are allies attacking?

[-=HipKat=-]

10 hours ago, MosesIsComingLookBusy said:

did you do /scores?
Did you check for progression of map?
Did you look for the amount of raters, obj players, ego players, new players on each team?
How many mintues left?
Which stage of the map?
Is allies struggling getting to obj?
You only mention 2 players on one team, what did the other team have?
Is allies steamrolling?
Is allies working as a team?
Is axis working as a team?
Are axis defending?
Are allies attacking?

Holy mackerel, dude. 

THESE have nothing to do with the question but yes, if you NEED to know, Allies were rolling, scores were in favor of Allies by over 100 kills, well into the map and it's Jay 1. No one "works as a team" on Jay 1

[OliveiraptV]

its very hard to have teams balanced most off the time on any server some players/admin help others not so mutch i cant do mutch but i try to help sometimes 

[Shoresy]

Hey so firstly, to help limit a few of the replies in the future I would totally have taken a ss of the /scores and teams with also showing the maps timer. 
 

You know, for the obvious reasons 😄 

 

For me though. I take several things into consideration with team balancing. Primarily everything Moses said tbh. But another thing I like to think about too which is hand n hand with that list provided, but more directly is the fact that not ALWAYS can the “offending” team win. Sometimes a great map also is one that’s lost due to fantastic defense. So if hadn’t been “shuffled” in few maps, Allies have won the last 4/5 maps or I should say the “offending” team since some maps Axis is the one to get obj. I would let the teams fall slightly uneven to favor the other team a bit. At least for a few. 
 

Another thing I look at is how much time is left on the map. If there’s only 1-3 min left then I try not to bother. As some are real hardcore about their stats xD 

 

Not sure why this Admin was putting someone on the other team without calling for teams to even up first. Perhaps that player was Axis and the admin is simply putting that player back to their team. But that’s a different story. I’d suggest admins should be calling for teams to even up and if no one does then sort it out even if means moving over themself. 

[Betinho]

I think that most of the answer about evening teams is here:

 

https://fearless-assassins.com/wiki/index.php/W:ET_Admin_Basics

 

A big part of being an admin is making sure the teams are balanced and keeping the game fair. Admins and trial members should be the first to move to even the teams if they can. Use idle moments such as when you’re waiting to respawn and when you’ve just left a fight to check the teams with the Tab key. Sometimes a team might have 2 or 3 more players and the game can still be fair, try to focus more on the quality of players if you can. There are a few other ways check and they’re listed below.

• Holding Tab brings up the teams, you can see how many players are on each team. Let’s say there’s 15 players on Allies and 13 on Axis. At first glance it looks like the teams are unbalanced but typing /scores in console can show the full story. The scores command brings up 2 tables, one for Allies and one for Axis. Each row shows a different player and each column shows statistics. The columns from left to right are: Players, Kills, Deaths, Suicides, Team Kills, Efficiency, Game Points, Damage Given, Damage Received, Team Damage Given, Team Damage Received and Score. The main ones to look out for are Kills, Deaths and Efficiency.
• Some of our servers use n!tmod and silEnT mod. Both of these have other ways to check team balance. The silEnT mod uses Kill Rate (KR) and Player Rate of Win (PRW). You can toggle which of these are displayed by tapping Tab twice, the team average for these statistics is at the top of the scoreboard. While these both have their downsides, they can still give a good indication of balance. For N!tmod the scoreboard shows the kill to death ratio of each player meaning you don’t have to check the console for scores as much.
• When holding Tab you can also see a number in square brackets at the top of the scoreboard (if you have XP showing). This number shows how much XP the team has earned since the start of the map. For example, Allies could 450 XP and Axis could have 1000 XP. This shows that Axis are overpowering Allies and something should be done about the teams.

On the other hand, the story of using map progression as a parameter to take into account is much more relative, because a team can have 8 medics and 1 engineer, and the other can have 4 and 4, and it is possible that the one with 8 medics is winning in scores (kills, deaths, efficiency), and the other can advance on the map. Anyway, honestly, I do /scores and see that a team wins 200 kills to 100 kills and I go to help the weaker team. The map progression for me, depends on factors that are usually in the number of players who care more about winning the map than being a fragger.
On the other hand, it is also understandable that some admins get tired of leveling teams and expect other players to move, as long as these players, by moving, are not devaluing in scores (kills, deaths, efficiency).

[Snake in the Grass]

to add my two cents:

The real difficulty of manual balancing is that some hardboiled eggs will just go to spec or even leave when moved to the other team; let alone the whining and the complaining.

As in any management topic, the best is to involve the people: I ask them to move by themselves, and usually some nice players will, maybe not the level appropriate but at least we can get some numerical balance. Then after the soft power techniques comes the hard power, but it also has its limit (i.e. people leaving as protest).

 

Also, teams are self-balancing, the question can we wait or not. For instance, if 20v17, especially in early stage of the maps, i don't even bother to bring people attention on it, because experience proves after a couple of minute, some people will join the lower team.

 

I know Redbaird is constantly monitoring the team kills difference. That and the team score difference, are very good first approaches to check on game balance.

 

[Snake in the Grass]

17 hours ago, -=HipKat=- said:

And if the admin or anyone knows the event PLEASE don't call out the admin, that's not the point I'm trying to make or to point fingers.

There is a couple of Jay1 admins that don't call out anyone before moving people around. You're definitively right on the principle; to me, that's a minor issue and we shall try and address it in due time among admins.

[-=HipKat=-]

21 hours ago, Shoresy said:

Hey so firstly, to help limit a few of the replies in the future I would totally have taken a ss of the /scores and teams with also showing the maps timer. 
 

You know, for the obvious reasons 😄 

 

For me though. I take several things into consideration with team balancing. Primarily everything Moses said tbh. But another thing I like to think about too which is hand n hand with that list provided, but more directly is the fact that not ALWAYS can the “offending” team win. Sometimes a great map also is one that’s lost due to fantastic defense. So if hadn’t been “shuffled” in few maps, Allies have won the last 4/5 maps or I should say the “offending” team since some maps Axis is the one to get obj. I would let the teams fall slightly uneven to favor the other team a bit. At least for a few. 
 

Another thing I look at is how much time is left on the map. If there’s only 1-3 min left then I try not to bother. As some are real hardcore about their stats xD 

 

Not sure why this Admin was putting someone on the other team without calling for teams to even up first. Perhaps that player was Axis and the admin is simply putting that player back to their team. But that’s a different story. I’d suggest admins should be calling for teams to even up and if no one does then sort it out even if means moving over themself. 

I and one other player called for even teams and the admin moved Smart to Axis.

 

I appreciate the replies.

The point I was getting to is that Raider and db are two of the best players on Jay 1, on the same stacked team.

Why move a low skilled player just to balance the player count when one of the better layers could have been asked to move or moved?

 

That's just how I would have approached I guess, but I wondered if I out too much thought into it (Like I do everything lol)

[-=HipKat=-]

18 hours ago, Snake in the Grass said:

Also, teams are self-balancing, the question can we wait or not. For instance, if 20v17, especially in early stage of the maps, i don't even bother to bring people attention on it, because experience proves after a couple of minute, some people will join the lower team.

 

Yah, this is true, although there have been times when the heavier team is rolling right to or through the first objective, like taking a Flag/CP before anyone works to balance teams, which is frustrating

Again, I tend to overthink things.

[Shoresy]

4 hours ago, -=HipKat=- said:

That's just how I would have approached I guess, but I wondered if I out too much thought into it (Like I do everything lol)

nope I get it. 
So tell me more about your adhd without telling me you have adhd 😂

 

i also agree on your logic with the rest. Which is why I was hoping that was a case of moving someone back to their original team. 

[-=HipKat=-]

8 hours ago, Shoresy said:

nope I get it. 
So tell me more about your adhd without telling me you have adhd 😂

 

i also agree on your logic with the rest. Which is why I was hoping that was a case of moving someone back to their original team. 

When I was a kid, they didn't have ADHD, they had hyper!

[Sonofdoc]

On 3/3/2025 at 4:02 PM, -=HipKat=- said:

Jay 1, Allies have 3 more than Axis and the map is Marrakech, which Allies win often.

Raider and db are on Allies

An FA Admin, also on Allies moves Smart to Axis to balance.

 

That's not the best example of balancing teams, correct?

Hello Hipkat, thank you for posting about this and finding a good approach for this question. I can understand how it can cause confusion for players in examples like this, so I am glad we are getting to discuss it.

On 3/4/2025 at 4:38 AM, -=HipKat=- said:

Holy mackerel, dude. 

THESE have nothing to do with the question but yes, if you NEED to know, Allies were rolling, scores were in favor of Allies by over 100 kills, well into the map and it's Jay 1. No one "works as a team" on Jay 1

I apologize if those questions came off as passive aggressive, but these additional details do help and do somewhat matter.

 

And before I continue I just want to make a side note to all of our players that if you ever feel like an admin is not doing their part to maintain a fair and fun environment (ex: not balancing teams or making an effort to do so, etc etc), please always feel welcome to contact us through Contact Us, file a server complaint through Server Complaints, or submit a Admin Abuse Report  for more substantial or reoccurring manners (all with proper proof/info ofc). I don't just say this for the sake of disciplinary matters, but more for ensuring that we can maintain a high level of quality on our servers. For example, on jay1 I have seen a fair amount of players who think that posting about anything on these forums is damn near pointless, and granted some of those people are just lazy and like to complain, but there are players who do feel that way, and I wish that was different because this is stuff that should be brought up.

 

Now, as per our =F|A= Wiki : "Trial and clan members should be the first to move to even teams. We expect members to move at least once every 2-3 maps. Also not all members have good enough skill level, to make difference or actually resolve unbalance issue, so if that's the case, asking/moving regulars/skilled player is best thing to do."

 

We are not as heavy on the 2-3 map switching because it is typically not a issue as long as teams are fair/balanced. Unless there is too little time remaining for it to matter (usually 5 mins depending on map and progress) or other similar factors, the BOTTOM LINE is that if you are wearing tags and playing, you are expected to move first and balance the teams. When there are multiple admins playing, they are expected to be the first to move to balance the teams. Sure, it is totally fine if teams are called and another players moved first anyways, admin afk, they do nothing once or twice, whatever. However, when a team goes -3 and an admin is deliberately not upholding the bare-minimum and very basic commitment to keeping teams balanced, that is just absolutely piss poor lazy and only hurts the quality of gameplay. Although I believe that ET somewhat requires the combined efforts of all players in this day and age, if an admin will not take initiative, nobody will. Well, maybe some, but definitely not a lot 😂

 

I did not even consider any names throughout this post, nor is it directed towards anyone in particular, but I hope this is able to give you/everyone a more definitive answer as to where the lines should stand in these situations.

 

If you have any more questions or concerns about this, always feel free to reach out to us 

[Kurupttt]

I can see where you are coming from @-=HipKat=- ! At the core of this question/remark and the issue at hand, is:

The impact big fraggers have on team balance on our pubs.

This can’t be understated and i think this sometimes gets overlooked.

Having advantage in # of those fraggers can enable the objective players and weaker heavy-weapon carrying or spamming players to flourish. Which in turn translates into big influence on almost all semi-relevant markers for balance, like scores or obj play. This influence will be bigger when there’s a lower total amount of players.

Of course, the impact differs for individual fraggers; the positioning they choose, the amount they help with obj, wether they heal and revive..Yet the # of these fraggers usually indicates a lot.

Some of my tips (for all) to cope with this – and a vowel to renew my own efforts on this part;
 

- Ask for a fragger, not for ‘balance’.
Otherwise a low-impact, friendly, balance-minding player (hello, i’m Kuru) will join your team, which won’t alter the dynamics of gameplay much.

- Call out big fraggers that join the team that already has that advantage.
Not in a negative way, but something like: ‘Can you join Axis instead XXX? We are already pinned down and can use you’. A bit of ego-bait goes a long way and works a lot better than ‘Look, look, XXX is stacking!’.

- When you have a big fragger on your team, ask them to help on a different (more relevant) part of the map.

- Not all players notice what you notice and think and analyse how you do. Don’t expect them to do so. Heck, some of us our drunk while playing.

- Remind yourself that you aren’t always right – your opinion gets skewed by your own gameplay experience. Maybe you get crushed, but the rest of your team doesn’t. the amount of times this has happened to me..

- Be mellow on admins on this point.
Not all FA-members know all server regulars and their skills, not all know the actual fraggers.

- Don’t be too harsh on said fraggers aswell!
Can imagine this to be annoying for them too. Some of them switch all the time, just to make things more fair/playable for all involved. Yet still they skew balance wherever they go ánd receive complaints. You guys know who you are, please keep coming back to our servers ❤️

And of course, ocassionally there’s an ignoramus that just doesn’t give a damn..don’t let them get in your head, you are here to enjoy yourself! Just make sure your remarks are precise and respectful.

[-=HipKat=-]

@Sonofdoc Good stuff!

 

@Kurupttt Awesome advice. BTW, dang you can be tough to get. You always seem to pop up out of nowhere. You don't know it but you're like my nemesis! 

You understood what I was getting at. Many times, it's not the right person that gets moved; it's just a random person who balances player count and not team strength.

  

23 hours ago, Kurupttt said:

- Not all players notice what you notice and think and analyse how you do. Don’t expect them to do so. Heck, some of us our drunk while playing.

 lol.. I don't know anyone that analyzes things as crazy as I do!

 

 

 

Edited March 7 by -=HipKat=-