TheFriendlyVEGAN Posted May 19, 2020 Posted May 19, 2020 Hi everyone. So, I had to make this post, but don't worry, this will be the only post I make about veganism and a plant-based diet (with the exception when people either ask me or provoke me; e.g. on the server, there was a player who claimed that I would get more kills if I ate meat; while I assumed this was an innocent joke, I nevertheless felt the need to mention a movie about vegan sportspeople). The point of this post is to inform. It is not meant to make anyone feel less about themselves. It is not meant to force anyone to go vegan. I cannot force people to go vegan, and even if I could, I wouldn't want it, it is a decision that everyone has to take for themselves. I don't judge people for not being vegan. I realize that the vegan community in general can often come across as hateful towards non-vegans; and I admit that I get carried away too from time to time. You have to understand that we are passionate about our activism, about the animals. I welcome all comments, critiques and questions, but I do ask that you don't insult, that you don't just post images of meat, that you keep the discussion civil. If at any time I might lose my cool, feel free to point it out to me. Veganism, vegetarianism, a plant-based diet, ... what's in a name? A "regular" person might consume meat, chicken, eggs, cheese, fish, milk, honey, gelatin, ... and use leather, wool, silk, ..., visit zoos, ... A vegetarian avoids meat, chicken and fish, but might still consume eggs, cheese, milk, honey, gelatin, ... and use leather, wool, silk, ..., visit zoos, ... There are vegetarians who still consume fish or chicken. Someone on a plant-based diet avoids meat, chicken, fish, eggs, cheese and milk, but might still consume honey and gelatin, and use leather, wool, silk, ..., visit zoos, ... A vegan avoids all animal products, both in food, but also in clothing or entertainment. While you might think that avoiding so many "products" seems like a restriction, I can assure you that it is not. What is wrong with honey? The selection of a queen is a natural process. In beekeeping, it's the beekeeper who chooses the queen. Her wings are cut off so she can't find another (a better) hive. Every year, the queen is killed by the beekeeper as to keep the hive "fresh". One bee produces a tiny amount of honey. One jar of honey is a lifetime's work for a hive. Even the bees are kept in captivity, not free to do as they please. Forced to work for honey, without the right to keep or use any of it. What is wrong with gelatin? In theory, nothing is wrong with gelatin, other than that is disgusting. Gelatin is boiled down bones from animals, usually pigs. Gelatin is often used in candy. Boiled-down (pig) bones are fed to children as treats. What is wrong with milk (and cheese and yogurt, ...)? People often don't realize that a cow is a mammal, and like all mammals, cows need to be pregnant to produce milk. The bull gets a rod in his anus through which he receives electric shocks. This causes him to ejaculate. The semen is caught. The cow is trapped in a "rape rack" (this term comes from the farmers themselves, dog breeders also use that term for similar purposes). The farmer inserts his arm in the cow's anus to maneuver the syringe with bull semen in her vagina. The cow is made pregnant against her will. The cow carries the calf for nine months. During the final months, she starts producing milk. When the milk production starts, so does the milking. When the calf is born, it is immediately taken away. The calf never gets any of the milk his or her mother produces for him or her. Instead, the calf gets a substitute which lacks several nutrients. Whenever a cow or bull grows older than ten, they have severe health problems. This is due to the lack of nutrients from the milk substitute. Three months after she gives birth, the cow is made pregnant again. When the calf is a male, he is raised for calf's meat. He is fed mostly liquid food to preserve the meat, this is far from healthy for the male calf. He is slaughtered when he is six months old. When the calf is female, she is raised to become a milking cow and ends up like her mother. Before she is one year old, she is made pregnant. When the milking cow is four or five years old, she is spent. The milk production is too low to be profitable, so she is sent to slaughter. They are turned into minced meat. Most of the meat in fastfood burgers comes from milking cows. The average lifespan of a cow is around 20 years old. The average lifespan of a bull is unknown, simply because we don't allow them to ever grow old. It happens more often than the industry would like to admit, but pregnant cows are also slaughtered. When their throats are slit, the unborn calf in their uterus slowly suffocates. What is wrong with eggs? One hundred years ago, the average chicken laid 50 to 100 eggs per year. In the wild, the average chickes lays 12 eggs per year. The chickens we breed for eggs, lay about 300 to 350 eggs in one year. For every chicken that lays eggs, you can also assume that a male chicken was born. Male chickens are useless in the industry. They are killed the same day they are born. This is done either by gassing (they suffocate slowly), by drowning (they are thrown in a big barrel until it's almost full, then water is added and the lid is placed to close it off), by placing them on a big conveyor belt that leads them into a big shredded where they are torn up alive. In Belgium alone, every second five male chicks are killed. What is wrong with meat? Animals have a right to live. The animals are bred for our consumption only. We decide that they have to live, they live in terrible conditions, and we decide that they should die and when they should die. Every animal wants to live. Not a single animal wants to be killed to end up as a steak or a sausage. The slaughter process is horrible. Most of the time, animals are conscious when their throats are slit. In the slaughterhouses, there are halls full of animals, waiting in line to be killed. They hear the screams of their kind, they smell the blood. They understand that they are about to die. The psychological horror of knowing you are going to die, "feeling" your kind die in a way that makes them scream out, is tremendous. All the animals you consume are babies and children. - Chickens raised for meat are killed when they are around 7 weeks old, while their average lifespan is around 12 years (those chickens, called broiler chickens, are so fat than their legs break under their own weight). - Egg-laying chickens are killed at around 18 months, their average lifespan is around 12 years. - Male chickens are killed the day they are born, their average lifespan is around 12 years. - Dairy cows are killed when they are 4 to 5 years old, their average lifespan is around 20 years. - Veal calves are killed when they are around 6 months old, their average lifespan is around 20 years (which is an estimate, since bulls never get the chance to grow old). - Sheep are killed at around 6 months, their average lifespan is around 14 years. - Pigs are killed at around 6 months, their average lifespan is around 12 years. - Turkeys are killed at around 2 months, their average lifespan is around 10 years. In all the wars and genocides in our recorded history, we have killed over 600 million humans. We kill the same amount of (land) animals every five days. (One million seconds is 11 days; one billion seconds is over 31 years) If humans killed each other at the same rate we killed the animals, we would be extinct in less than three weeks. Animals sent to slaughter don't get to eat or drink for 24 to 72 hours beforehand. Why? Because it is both a waste of resources and it keeps their intestines clean, just in case a slaughterhouse worker accidentally cuts an intestine (if they ate, it might spoil the meat). What is wrong with fish? By 2048 the oceans will be empty. No fish means no sea plants. While it is well-known that forests provide us with oxygen; the biggest producer of oxygen are ocean plants. Fish do feel pain, contrary to popular believe. Every year close to 2.7 trillion fish are hooked, netted, suffocated, gutted, boiled, ... when conscious. For every tonne of fish caught, there's between two to five tonne of bycatch. Bycatch is thrown back into the ocean, but not all animals survive the catch. Bycatch can consist of sharks, turtles, dolphines, whales, endangered species of fish, ... "But nature is cruel." or "Lions eat animals." True. Nature is very cruel. True, lions eat gazelles. Lions, however, do not breed animals by the billions, just to eat them. When a lion kills an animal, they do so because they are hungry and want to eat. When they are not hungry, they will not kill. What is wrong with zoos? Animals are kept in captivity. They never asked for this. We can all agree that slavery is wrong, that imprisoning innocent people is wrong. Zoos are no different. In 1958 the World Expo landed in Belgium and ... there were people from African descent (Congo / Zaire was a Belgian colony, so it was "easy" to get them to Belgium) in zoo-type enclosures for the local people to watch. Today, we obviously condemn this. There are humans locked up in prisons and we condemn that. There are animals locked up in zoos and we bring our children to watch them. We also claim that zoos have an education value, yet, most children know more about dinosaurs than the average zoo-animal. What is wrong with leather? If covering yourself in the skin of a dead animal doesn't turn you off, then maybe this will. Leather from countries not labeled as "Western" often is cut off from the animals when they are alive. Faux leather? Unfortunately this comes from Asia, from dogs and cats, boiled alive. For one kilogram of silk, around 6.000 silk worms are boiled alive. Wool comes from sheep. We all know that. Sheep need to be sheared. True. However, we have bred sheep to grow so much wool. Also, most sheep are sheared brutally and often end up with wounds. This is because the shearers aren't always paid a lot, and they have high work pressure; this makes the sheep struggle, so the shearers are less careful, and so on. Down are feathers from young geese. They are plucked when they are alive. The down grows back, and they are plucked again. When they are too old, and don't produce downs anymore (instead, they grow regular feathers), they are slaughtered. Fur is harvested from live animals. Faux fur comes from cats and dogs. Why choose veganism? If you care about animals, going vegan is the most logical choice you can make. By switching to veganism, you save so many animals. I don't have the average numbers for every country, but the average Belgian citizen that becomes 80 years old, will have eaten an average of 1.800 animals. Worldwide, every second (!), over 4.000 land animals are slaughtered. The number for fish is probably ten times more, but there's just no statistics for fish. They are caught and measured by weight, not by number of caught fish. If you care about humans, going vegan is the most logical choice you can make. Every year we manage to feed over 70 billion land animals, just to slaughter them. Yet, every year, close to a billion people die of starvation. Why is this? Because most of those people who die of starvation, live in poorer countries. The grains that are harvested there, are sold as livestock feed. We fail to feed 8 billion people with how we are currently eating. When the world would go vegan, we would be able to feed 15 to 17 billion people. So many fields could be reinstated as forests (forests, as you well know, provide oxygen). If you care about the climate, going vegan is the second most logical choice you can make (the single best choice to make when you want to save the climate, is not having kids). Livestock emissions are as high as all car, plane, truck, ...-emissions. This is because cow farts and cow feces are so toxic and damaging to the climate. In the US alone, cow feces can fill up the Empire State Building ... every day. There are entire lakes of cow feces. Most of the Amazon rainforest is being cut for livestock and livestock feed. While it is true that most of the rainforest that is cut down for feed, is cut down for soy beans; it is worth pointing out that of all soy bean production, 80% ends up being served to livestock. Soy beans that are grown for human consumption, is grown in Europe and no rainforests are cut down for this. If you care about yourself, going vegan is the most logical choice you can make. The animals experience so much stress that it messes up their hormones, which end up in their "meat", which you consume. Animals get cancer too. It's too time-consuming and costly to inspect each animal for cancer, so when they find a cancer or tumor in meat, they just cut it out, as if that solves everything. The caseine in milk, that they claim is good for your bones, is actually harmful for your bones. Governments and doctors warn you to not take too much antibiotics. 80% to 85% of antibiotics that are produced are fed to livestock animals, because of all the diseases that are rampant in the stables, slaughterhouses, factory farms, ... Hot dogs consist of slaughter garbage, like eyeballs and anuses. The amount of crap that's in animal products is so high. Of the 20 most common deaths in the US, 18 are caused directly or indirectly by consuming animal products (the other two are gun deaths and traffic accidents). But what do you eat? I eat everything you eat, I just replace the animal products with plant-based alternatives. There's plant-based burgers, plant-based fishsticks, plant-based chicken, plant-based bacon, ... there's a plant-based alternative for so many things, and the list is growing still. Of course, when you place a block of tofu in the pan, it's gonna be disgusting. When you take a plant-based burger out of its package and place it in the pan, it's not gonna taste great. You just have to use the same herbs and spices that you do with meat. Also, I think it's worth mentioning that I eat more varied than when I wasn't vegan. A typical meal used to consist of potatoes, one type of vegetables and a piece of meat. Now, there's usually five types of vegetables on my plate. I have tried fruits and vegetables that I never ate when I was a non-vegan. "Plants feel pain!" This is a debatable topic and most sources claim that plants do not feel pain. If I place a head of lettuce and a dog in front of you, and I am about to kick the dog, would you stop me? Would you stop me if I were to kick the head of lettuce? If I kicked the dog, the dog would react. The dog would either defend himself and attack me, or he would run away. The head of lettuce will only roll away, and this is not by his own actions. For the sake of argument, let's assume that plants do feel pain. Since a non-vegan diet uses up to 17 times more plants than a vegan diet, going vegan would still be the best choice. What's wrong with animal testing? We have succesfully given a mouse cancer. We have succesfully cured the mouse of cancer. Yet, we cannot cure cancer in humans. A mouse simply isn't a small human; a human simply isn't a big mouse. We differ enough to make animal testing completely useless. A good example for this is aspirin. Cats are allergic to aspirin. Can you imagine if this was never tested on humans? Can you imagine the amounts of good research we wasted, by testing on the wrong species? Animals suffer tremendously in labs. Vivisection (being cut open while alive) occurs often. "I'm just one person, I cannot make a difference." Gandhi said "be the change you want to see in the world." Vegans are living proof of this. As a single vegan, you cannot end all animal cruelty in one day. But all vegans collectively are changing the world. One of the Netherlands' biggest meat processing companies is converting one of their plants to produce plant-based meat. Dairy companies in the US (and the rest of the world) are filing for bankruptcy because sales are declining. When you buy vegan (and when you not buy animal products; not every vegan product is labeled "vegan"), you send a message to the stores, to the manufactures, to stockholders, to lobbyists. You can change the world with your wallet, every little step forward is still a step forward. Nutrition... All protein is initially made by plants. There is no cholesterol in plant foods. Protein can be found in pumpkin seeds, peanut butter, almonds, pistachio, flaxseed, tofu, cashews, soybeans, lentils, ... Iron can be found in grapes, almonds, tomatoes, avocados, broccoli, bananas, coconus, pine nuts, potatoes, ... Calcium can be found in leafy greens, almonds, sesame seeds, caulifower, ... Every single nutrient can be found in a plant-based diet. B12 is a vitamin that every vegan has to take in supplement form. B12 cannot be found naturally anymore. Non-vegans get their B12 from eating meat. However ... the animals get their B12 from supplements too. Cut out the middleman (or animal, in this case). "Isn't veganism like really expensive?" It is, if you buy all the top-brand meat alternatives, all the top-brand products that are labeled "vegan". It is not if you buy more fruits and vegetables, if you buy off-brand products, if you buy products that are "accidentally" vegan (products that don't contain animal products, but this wasn't by design, per se). It is also true that fresh fruits and vegetables are more expensive in more remote locations, so it might be equally expensive as a non-vegan diet, or it might be more expensive than a non-vegan diet in remote locations. "That's just all vegan propaganda!" I have seen so many videos of animals being tortured and slaughtered. I have seen so many videos of animals being treated like trash, being boiled alive, being skinned alive. I have no shame in telling you that I cried so much watching those videos. I've cried, I've puked, I've hurt myself to deal with the horrendous stuff that I have seen. Why do I watch those videos? Well, first of all, I "needed" to know. I needed to know that what I was told, was true. And it is, unfortunately. Secondly, I learned to edit videos back in school, so now I used that knowledge to edit videos for several animal rights organisations. I personally have no gain when someone goes vegan. I don't earn money, I don't own stocks in vegan companies, ... The only thing that I can gain is ... when someone goes vegan because of what I said, and tells me that it is because of me, it does make me feel a bit better. Knowing that every vegan brings on the downfall of the injustice that animals face every single second, does make me feel a bit better too. Why is it that, when a vegan tries to inform someone, it's dismissed as propaganda; but when McDonalds tells you to try this new burger, when dairy companies tell you that milk is good for you, when meat companies tell you that meat is healthy, ... that no one bats an eye? They have financial gain when they convince you to listen to them. "Veganism is so extreme" There is nothing extreme about not wanting to kill animals. It is extreme, however, how people have been brainwashed into believing that animals need to die for our tastebuds. What is extreme is all the things I've written above. For more information: Free documentaries and videos (all of which can be found on YouTube) - Earthlings - Land of Hope And Glory - Dominion - "This is the best speech you will ever hear" by Gary Yourofsky - "Dairy is scary" - anything by Earthling Ed Documentaries on Netflix - Cowspiracy - Okja (not a documentary) - What The Health - Blackfish - Game Changers Quotes - "Veganism is not a diet. Plant-based is a diet. Veganism is a liberation movement." - "If they breathe, they live. If they live, they think. If they think, they feel. Just like you and me." Anthony Douglas Williams - "Animals go into the slaughterhouse alive and come out chopped into pieces, and people think something humane happens along the way." Larry Fisher - "Never forget there's no such thing as 'humane slaughter', I never saw an animal clicking their heels, saying 'yippie, I'm going to be a McDonalds burger tomorrow', there is always fear in their eyes. They know exactly what is going to happen." Howard Lyman, ex cattle rancher - "Not everyone is in the position to help animals, but everyone is in the position not to harm them." Anthony Douglas Williams - "The very fact that having an equal respect for life must be so thoroughly explained says something terrifying about the conscious state of humanity as a species." - "Veganism is not about how easy or hard it is for you. It's about every animal's right not to be used as a slave." Randy Sandberg - "It is hard to believe that vegans need to explain why hurting animals is wrong." - "The question is not 'can they reason?' or 'can they talk?', but 'can they suffer?'" Jeremy Bentham - "Why do so many people try to find loopholes and flaws with veganism? Why are you trying to pole holes in something that has a sole intention of reducing suffering and being kind to others and the planet?" - "Equal rights for others does not mean fewer rights for you. It's not pie." - "Animals run no risk of going to hell, they are there already." Victor Hugo - "What's the difference between Yulin and Thanksgiving? Propaganda." Tom Lee Walker - "Animals don't hate, and we're supposed to be better than them." Elvis Presley - "The most violent weapon on Earth is the fork." Mahatma Gandhi - "It takes nothing away from a human to be kind to an animal." Joaquin Phoenix - "We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented." Elie Wiesel - "I guess the only time most people think about injustice is when it happens to them." Charles Bukowski. - "Everyone is against violence. Until they sit down to eat." - "It's troubling when people get upset with vegans for pointing out the suffering ... rather than getting upset with themselves for causing it." Jo Tyler - "We all love animals, just not enough to eat something else." - "If you don't like seeing pictures of violence towards animals being posted, you need to help stop the violence, not the pictures." Johnny Depp - "The most dangerous phrase in our language is 'we have always done it this way'." Grace Hopper - "If you eat meat, you love pets, not animals." Miley Cyrus - "If only there was some easy way to reduce cancer, reduce obesity, reduce heart disease, reduce diabetes, end rainforest deforestation, reduce water use, reduce famine and cut climate change by almost 50% ..." Moby - "Humans are afraid of aliens because we think they will treat us the same way we treat animals here on Earth." - "A farmer can find a different job. An animal cannot find another life." Well, I think that concludes the information that I have. As I said, I can only inform you. What you end up doing, is your own choice. At least now, you can never say you didn't know. If I have offended anyone by what I posted, then I apologize. It is not my intend to offend or harm. I would also like to point out that I wasn't born vegan. I went vegan in 2017, so I have eaten meat, cheese, eggs, drank milk, went to zoos, had leather shoes, ... I learned what happened and made the switch. I admit that - especially in the beginning - going grocery shopping took me three times as long, just to read all the ingredients, to see if there were animal products in them. If you read this all through, first of all, thank you! If you have questions, feel free to hit me up, either via direct message, or in a comment below. There are no stupid questions. I also would like to add, again, that I won't judge you if you won't go vegan after reading this. I might be slightly disappointed, but I also get that you don't believe everything I might say. To put it bluntly, you have been blinded and brainwashed and I'm trying to make you see. Usually, this doesn't happen overnight. Thank you for your time 💚🌱 raf. 1 1 Quote
Leader RedBaird Posted May 20, 2020 Leader Posted May 20, 2020 (edited) I was looking for our "Food Forum" to move this to, but we don't have one anymore! ( Did we have one in the "old forums"? ) Then I thought about the "Spam Forum", but realized how offensive that that might be to the poster! It was a funny thought, though! @Leatherface "Saves the Day" (again! ) Edited May 20, 2020 by RedBaird kudos to LeatherFace! 3 1 Quote
Leatherface Posted May 20, 2020 Posted May 20, 2020 15 minutes ago, RedBaird said: I was looking for our "Food Forum" to move this to, but we don't have one anymore! ( Did we have one in the "old forums"? ) Then I thought about the "Spam Forum", but realized how offensive that that might be to the poster! It was a funny thought, though! https://fearless-assassins.com/forum/199-food-and-drink/ 3 1 Quote
LazyHippo Posted May 20, 2020 Posted May 20, 2020 Very interesting information, didnt knew some. I practice vegetarianism for some years now and I say its a big challenge against a majority of world population that eats meat or even worse treat animals with disrespect, decided to go against that and dont be accomplice. Through time it has its cons and favors. I eat seafood occasionally and that because I live just next to the sea and local fish is normally cheaper than a good vegetable buy 😅 2 Quote
Leader RedBaird Posted May 21, 2020 Leader Posted May 21, 2020 7 hours ago, LazyHippo said: Through time it has its cons and favors. I respect people who prefer a concept, a philosophy, or a lifestyle, but who can also be so mentally evenhanded as to say, "it has its pros and cons". 🏁 2 1 Quote
Smultronstallet Posted May 21, 2020 Posted May 21, 2020 40 minutes ago, RedBaird said: I respect people who prefer a concept, a philosophy, or a lifestyle, but who can also be so mentally evenhanded as to say, "it has its pros and cons". 🏁 That certainly sounds like this definition: The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function 1 1 Quote
TheFriendlyVEGAN Posted May 21, 2020 Author Posted May 21, 2020 On 5/20/2020 at 5:57 AM, RedBaird said: I was looking for our "Food Forum" to move this to, but we don't have one anymore! ( Did we have one in the "old forums"? ) Then I thought about the "Spam Forum", but realized how offensive that that might be to the poster! It was a funny thought, though! @Leatherface "Saves the Day" (again! ) Not a critique or anything, just an f.y.i., the reason that I didn't post this in the food section is because veganism is not the same a plant-base diet. Where a plant-based diet is just that, a diet; veganism is so much more than just "food"; it's a social movement, it's a justice movement. I surely can appreciate the joke about putting it in the Spam Forum 🙂 ; in most places, whenever the word "vegan" is mentioned, there's a lot of angry reactions, as if the vegans are evil or something; so I am used to hate and such. It was a funny thought indeed, and I appreciate it not ending up in the Spam Forum, or worse ... deleted 🙂 18 hours ago, LazyHippo said: Very interesting information, didnt knew some. I practice vegetarianism for some years now and I say its a big challenge against a majority of world population that eats meat or even worse treat animals with disrespect, decided to go against that and dont be accomplice. Through time it has its cons and favors. I eat seafood occasionally and that because I live just next to the sea and local fish is normally cheaper than a good vegetable buy 😅 It sure is a challenge. Constantly having to explain why you choose not to eat rotting corpses, why you're against animal cruelty. I lived in big cities (big, for Belgium, which isn't big compared to cities like Paris, London or New York) and there it's no big deal being vegan. A lot of restaurants offer vegan options, there are even restaurants that offer only vegan food. Wearing clothing with vegan phrases or a motto or whatever, no one bats an eye (unless you go near a butcher's shop), ... I recently moved to the countryside and my neighbours are cattle farmers. There are more farmers down the road, there are hunters down the road. I have a hoodie that says "Vegan as F*ck", but I'm too 'scared ' to wear it in public. Restaurants don't offer vegan options, some don't even have vegetarian options. The vegan options in grocery stores are limited. I was invited in for a cup of coffee by my neighbours, welcoming me to the neighborhood and they offered cookies. And I had to refuse, because, obviously there they contained milk and eggs. So yeah, it sure is a challenge. But knowing how much the animals suffer, my 'challenge' is nothing compared to that. Also, knowing how I don't contribute to animal suffering, makes the difficulty worth it. 10 hours ago, RedBaird said: I respect people who prefer a concept, a philosophy, or a lifestyle, but who can also be so mentally evenhanded as to say, "it has its pros and cons". 🏁 There's vegans who claim that there are no cons to being vegan, but that's not true. If you want, I can give you all the pros and cons 😉 1 Quote
Smultronstallet Posted May 21, 2020 Posted May 21, 2020 (edited) 14 hours ago, TheFriendlyVEGAN said: I surely can appreciate the joke about putting it in the Spam Forum 🙂 ; in most places, whenever the word "vegan" is mentioned, there's a lot of angry reactions, as if the vegans are evil or something; so I am used to hate and such. It was a funny thought indeed, and I appreciate it not ending up in the Spam Forum, or worse ... deleted 🙂 I think the reason for this is the fanaticism that some vegans show in their conviction or cause about veganism. Of course, that is not representative of the whole universe, and it happens the same with libertarians, feminists, and some other tribes... Of course dogmatism and fanaticism like many other ISM , paradoxically, doesn't promote true, inclusive causes of social justice. They can't understand other paradigms or ideas, because they are so attached to their own big theory. See what Isaiah Berlin said about it in The Hedgehog and the Fox. I can say all this because I was a voluntary firefighter, teacher in poor communities and voluntary in many prisons and poor hospitals. Fanatics don't do any real work, the only promote their big theory with YouTube videos and the like. Anyway, this is totally off the topic Great debate here Edited May 22, 2020 by Smultronstallet 1 Quote
LazyHippo Posted May 21, 2020 Posted May 21, 2020 6 hours ago, TheFriendlyVEGAN said: Also, knowing how I don't contribute to animal suffering, makes the difficulty worth it. Ofcourse here relies the problem, governments and politicians dont give a damn about animal suffering because they like their scrambled eggs in the morning and rib eye steak at the evening then maybe a sandwich by dinner. We have being "programmed" to overeat animal source food, when human body by his ancestors are in need of some kind of protein but not in such excess. I followed a nutritionist before doing it and was guided in the correct steps because if you just do it unconsciously you can really be in big problems speaking in long term. Here in Mexico we are in stoneage in that matter so its like more of an impediment rather than having the chance of decision. 1 Quote
TheFriendlyVEGAN Posted May 21, 2020 Author Posted May 21, 2020 4 hours ago, Smultronstallet said: I think the reason for this is the fanaticism that some vegans show their conviction or cause about veganism. Of course, that is not representative of the whole universe, and it happens the same with libertarians, feminists, and some other tribes... Of course dogmatism and fanaticism like many other ISM , paradoxically, doesn't promote true, inclusive causes of social justice. They can't understand other paradigms or ideas, because they are so attached to their own big theory. See what Isaiah Berlin said about it in The Hedgehog and the Fox. I can say all this because I was a voluntary firefighter, teacher in poor communities and voluntary in many prisons and poor hospitals. Fanatics don't do any real work, the only promote their big theory with YouTube videos and the like. Anyway, this is totally off the topic Great debate here Very true, but veganism is not some theory. Animals are dying by the billions. Worldwide over 4000 land animals are killed every second. That's an insane number. And it's totally not necessary. We can survive on a plant-based diet, there's plenty of scientific proof for this. This makes all the animal suffering so useless, so cruel. Vegans get angry because we see that cruelty, and we want it stopped. I have always been a shy person, never been able to stand up for my opinion. When I went vegan, I not only stood up for my opinion (killing animals is wrong), I even took to the streets, talking to whoever was interested, something I would never have been able to do if the topic were anything else. Vegans are convicted, because killing is wrong. Everyone is against animal cruelty, but can't see that they pay for animal cruelty when they sit down to eat. Everyone is against violence, but pay for violence when they eat. Vegans are angry and convicted because people are hypocrites when it comes to this And people are blind and refuse to see. Cognitive dissonance and speciesism is what we fight. Kudos to what you have done for the community! 4 hours ago, LazyHippo said: Ofcourse here relies the problem, governments and politicians dont give a damn about animal suffering because they like their scrambled eggs in the morning and rib eye steak at the evening then maybe a sandwich by dinner. We have being "programmed" to overeat animal source food, when human body by his ancestors are in need of some kind of protein but not in such excess. I followed a nutritionist before doing it and was guided in the correct steps because if you just do it unconsciously you can really be in big problems speaking in long term. Here in Mexico we are in stoneage in that matter so its like more of an impediment rather than having the chance of decision. Yes, it's very true. I do a lot of street activism (well, not now, due to the lockdown). A lot of people shift the blame to politics. "If the government makes it illegal"... or "if taxes on meat would increase", then they would eat less meat. Here in Belgium, we had the political debate about sedated slaughter, but this formed an issue with certain religions. One politician demanded that slaughter always happened under sedation, because it's just so damn cruel anyway, and even his party (the Green party) disagreed, so he left politics. Politicians are too busy with getting re-elected, so they want to please the voters. Very smart move to follow a nutritionist. More people should do that. Unfortunately, most nutritionist (and doctors, for that matter) still think meat and other animal products are necessary. 2 Quote
Leader RedBaird Posted May 22, 2020 Leader Posted May 22, 2020 22 hours ago, TheFriendlyVEGAN said: it's a social movement, it's a justice movement. Fearless Assassins does not have sections for Political or Religious postings, so I will leave this topic here for the time being. Just make sure that the comments do not descend into "hate-speech" against non-believers. Personally, I tend to ignore phrases in arguments which try to trigger my emotions, rather than trying to give me verifiable "facts." For instance, I decided long ago to not be resentful of "the Rich" as resistance against the many voices trying to excite my emotions into jealousy of them. All of us need to be wary of own "Righteous Anger", lest it lead us into levels of extremism. 1 Quote
TheFriendlyVEGAN Posted May 22, 2020 Author Posted May 22, 2020 8 minutes ago, RedBaird said: Fearless Assassins does not have sections for Political or Religious postings, so I will leave this topic here for the time being. Just make sure that the comments do not descend into "hate-speech" against non-believers. Personally, I tend to ignore phrases in arguments which try to trigger my emotions, rather than trying to give me verifiable "facts." For instance, I decided long ago to not be resentful of "the Rich" as resistance against the many voices trying to excite my emotions into jealousy of them. All of us need to be wary of own "Righteous Anger", lest it lead us into levels of extremism. There is nothing political or religious about veganism; but I understand the reasoning for the board it is in. Veganism is a way of living which seeks to exclude, as far as is possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose. I understand the use of the term "non-believers", but veganism is not something to believe in. Veganism is about aligning your actions (not contributing to the suffering of animals) with your morals (being against violence). I am aware that there is a thin line that makes a comment go from angry into hate-speech. If I ever do make a hate-speech comment, I apologize. There is a certain level of frustration in being vegan. Even when writing this reply, thousands of animals have died. Some people are more swayed by emotional information, and some need facts, that is true. In my post, I have given facts, like the average natural lifespan of animals and the age at which they are killed. But there's so much more, that animals feel pain. The number of animals killed, the effect of livestock on the climate, .... Would you like proof? Scientific data? Unbiased reports? I don't mean this as an attack or anything, although I can see that it might come across as such. Every person needs a different approach to "the truth". I also know that "my truth" might vary from "your truth" or "John's truth", and I am open to everyone's truth; but you need to call things what they are. As a vegan, I did my research, I do my research every day. I read scientific reports, I read boring and often difficult data. I read information from both sides, so I do think that I'm pretty aware of what's what. I will never claim to know everything, and I am always willing to learn more, about anything. When someone can counterclaim the information I provide, I'd be happy to read it. When a child has been raped, and someone gets angry about it; would you still call it righteous anger, when everyone knows full well that the anger is justified; even when the angry person has nothing to do with said raped child, or even has kids in their family? When Yulin festival happens (the annual dog eating festival in China), so many people in the West get angry. They get angry to the point of making racist comments towards Chinese people and Asian people, they promote a (temporary) boycott of Chinese products, .... Would you call that righteous anger? When veganism is concerned, the vegans are often labelled as extreme. But what is more extreme, not wanting to harm animals, or paying for a machine that kills animals by the billions? Again, this is not an attack on you. None of this is an attack on anyone. Just like when I'm protesting outside a slaughterhouse, I am not protesting the slaughterhouse workers or even the CEO's (I've had nice talks with slaughterhouse workers, slaughterhouse CEO's, farmers, ... they are all human, and humans are animals too, so they too belong to the group I fight to protect); it's the practice that I protest, it's the practice that I am against and that I want to see gone. The workers, all of the people, they can find other jobs; and vegans are the first to offer help for this, if it means less people working in that kind of industry, meaning that the industry might go bankrupt sooner. None of this is an attack on anyone; it is an attack on "the system", the way we've all been brainwashed into believing that animals are here for us and that we can use and abuse them the way we want. And with the information, with my questions, I just hope to get people to think. I don't need you to go vegan overnight, I do want you to start thinking about the whole food system; where your food comes from, how it is "produced" (there is something seriously wrong if your kids can't watch burgers or steaks being "made"), ... I don't assume that any post like this goes smooth, it never does. I get why it gets people aggravated; I'm trying to "change" your daily habits and your thinking, and we people like to think that we're in control. If you give a baby a bunny and an apple, it will play with the bunny and eat the apple. Eating animals is a learned behavior, and it can also be unlearned. That is what veganism is. 💚🌱 Quote
TheFriendlyVEGAN Posted May 22, 2020 Author Posted May 22, 2020 Can't immediately see how to edit, so I'll add a new comment instead; my apologies. I just wanted to add that veganism is a liberation movement. We fight for the rights of animals. Fifty years ago, people who fought for the rights of people of color were ridiculed. Hundred years ago, people who fought for the rights of women were ridiculed. The example of the child being raped might seem harsh, and I apologize if it offends or hurts anyone. Quote
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