Cheaters

[menatwork]

I've never cheated in my life (not even with board games) but I wonder about F|A's policy about it, for instance in: Niko's application.

 

If you look through the application you'll notice at least 3 replies that mention he's a good guy; then there's DJ asking about a PBBan to which Niko (which surprised me, to be honest) admitted; if you take a closer look at the PBBan you'll find 2 things:

 

 - Niko didn't mention the name he was banned under in his application - whether this was a mistake or intentional obfuscation of his past is somewhat relevant, he denies that however (as per his admittance, he said he forgot about it - 7 years is a long time - so it makes sense that he simply forgot about it);

 - The ban was 7 years old. If Niko is indeed 20 years old then he was 13 years old (as he mentioned).

 

Niko also mentioned that he didn't have problems with PB after 2009 - I'm guessing he's referring to being banned from servers that are streaming to PBBans due to the ban DJ linked in the application, which means - for approx. a year, maybe a little less, maybe a little more - Niko was being punished for cheating.

 

So let's summon this up a bit. 7 years ago (2008), Niko got caught - he got banned on PBBans and on every server streaming to PBBans until after 2009. 

 

Knowing those facts and having seen no proof that Niko has cheated since or has actively (i.e. on purposely) lied on his application the following questions comes to mind:

 

Should Niko still bear the responsibility of a mistake he made when he was a minor? Should be be denied entry into F|A (i.e. isn't there another option, say extended trial or a suspension of his application until more trust is build)?

 

Besides that question, I think we all know - everyone makes mistakes, whether we're adults or minors - but personally I feel everyone should be granted a second chance and I also feel very strongly that no-one should have a mistake haunt them for the rest of their lives.

 

Disclaimer: I don't know Niko, I might have seen him in-game but I don't recognize him.

[Joker]

We have an agreement with PBBans. They support our servers with their service and in return we - among other conditions - don't harbor cheaters. In their - and therefore our - definition a player caught by PBBans is a cheater which means we can not let him join our clan.

[Eggtato]

The problem with this w00tw00t is that we have never made the exception to let anyone in who has a pbban, we had a cod app denied for exactly the same he was banned in 2009 but we denied the app because a ban is a ban and if we get found out that we are allowing ex-hackers into our clan.

 

Cod app: http://fearless-assassins.com/topic/72729-deniedapply-madog/

 

Look for SIDs reply on page 2 about how we stream to pbbans and so if we got found out we were allowing ex-hackers that have pbbans well it would ruin our rep with pbbans.

 

So as much as he is a good guy he has been banned for hacking before even tho yes he was 13 at the time it is still a pbban and it would just look bad on us and if we get found out all shit could go up. So I don't think we are going to ever make the exception.

 

Edit: Joker sums it up

[Hecken]

Like Joker said, we have an agreement with PBBans, and having a clean record is a must in order to join us, that's one of the reasons we ask you to add your GUID in your profile.

 

Also think about this scenario:

We give Niko a second chance and we accept him as trial, what will happen afterwards? People who got denied for the same reason will whine about it, or other clans will start thinking that we recruit cheaters which will bring drama and ruin our reputation.

 

He's more than welcome to play on our servers, but he'll never be able to become a member.

 

PS: Doesn't matter if the ban is from 7 years ago: http://fearless-assassins.com/topic/72471-deniedolaaa-its-pepsicoooo-application-d/?hl=pbban&do=findComment&comment=633746 there you have another similar case.

[menatwork]

Thanks for your responses - that makes sense.

 

I understand it might have opened the floodgates - but considering the amount of years (7) the fact that he was a minor (assuming he was being honest) I felt bad for him and figured he deserved a chance but now it actually makes sense why the policy is so strict.

[Platonic]

Yep, I came across some people I pitied as well. Being an ex-cheater doesn't make you a bad person per se. Being an ex-thief doesn't, either. They receive punishment and some people end up regretting what they did. Often, these people end up disappearing because people act very negative to them.

I would suggest we start with that: don't stigmatize people who cheated many years ago. Let them be. Maybe even don't mention it in their app. Or at least discourage them to apply. I mean, gouvernment also cleans your criminal record after a period of time to make you able to start a new life.

[Joker]

And how are we supposed to deny their applications for cheating, without mentioning ... uhm, cheating?

[la7ette]

The existing rules works so well, and should please remain so!!!

Only , an error in their teens (13-14), should not be a life-long stigma!

I mean,
if Niko had admitted his misbehavior...... FA may give a fair chance ......... any of !?

But, he has not done ...... unfortunately

[menatwork]

Actually, la7ette, he did admit to cheating.

 

See: http://fearless-assassins.com/topic/73989-nikos-application/?p=647304

 

Now I'm not saying an exception should be made (or at least not anymore; it's clear that [and not to be rude] PBBans provides more value than an (ex-)cheating player does) - merely pointing out the fact that he did admit it. I suppose this is comparable to not allowing a (reformed) criminal to work in a prison as a guard.

Edited August 14, 2015 by w00tw00t

[Platonic]

And how are we supposed to deny their applications for cheating, without mentioning ... uhm, cheating?

Yep, I thought about that. You're right, there is no good alternative.

We can't really keep it a secret and maybe we shouldn't. But at least I do think we can sometimes keep it friendlier. Not really talking about the apps, rather about how they are somewhat seen as lepers, on the servers

[DJ aka GDR DJ]

we have clear clan politics - we let never never cheaters join in our clan !!! This is one of the main reason why i'm in this great clan.

sorry it's hard to say, but Internet never forgets

[Eggtato]

we have clear clan politics - we let never never cheaters join in our clan !!! This is one of the main reason why i'm in this great clan.

sorry it's hard to say, but Internet never forgets

And it should stay that way, that we don't allow hackers in or ex-hackers.

 

At the end of the day if we did make an exception it would make us like most clans that allow ex-hackers or hackers in... F|A is unique and we aren't the only clan that doesn't allow hackers or ex-hackers in but it's more common to see clans allow hackers in and it would just ruin our reputation if we started now.

[menatwork]

For those unaware of the meaning of the word 'lepers': a person who has been rejected or ostracized for unacceptablebehavior, opinions, character, or the like; anathema; outcast.

 

 

sorry it's hard to say, but Internet never forgets

 

Generally speaking, sometimes the internet should, in fact, forget as the world should. Sometimes things are more harmful than helpful. The world as it is now, is a rather sad state of affair (imo) where people's childhood mistakes (even those which weren't their fault) hunt them for the rest of their lives, speaking from personal experience.

[Joker]

We are talking about cheating in a meaningless game not armed robbery. I can assure you he will not be denied education or a job because of this.

 

Since our hands are tied I see no point in continuing this discussion. He cheated, he got busted, he can appeal his ban at PBBans if he wishes, there is nothing we can do.

Edited August 14, 2015 by Joker

[menatwork]

Joker, to be clear - I'm not disagreeing with the decision since there's now a clear reason why (i.e. you answered that already); in my previous post I was talking in general - and not about this case in particular nor was I lashing out at anyone here merely responding to the statement "the internet never forgets".

----

 

Allow me to clarify though - the questions in my original post (answered - though if I'm wrong feel free to correct me):

 

"Should Niko still bear the responsibility of a mistake he made when he was a minor? "

 

I think most of us agree he shouldn't - but it's something that can't be avoided in this case due to the agreement with PBBans.

 

"Should be be denied entry into F|A (i.e. isn't there another option, say extended trial or a suspension of his application until more trust is build)?"

 

Primarily he's being denied for the agreement with PBBans which makes it unacceptable to accept his application due his cheating in the past.

 

Hope this clears it up.

 

//locking.