Admin Guidelines for Map Rushing

[yellow flash]

so theoretically you can jump over wall at oasis just to blow one gun

 

no coz you cant trickjump for obj

 

like in fuel even if has been over 20min you cant jump over fuel walls for obj unless maindoor has been plasted

 

means you can't use trickjump to skip those parts do obj in "order".

Edited August 7, 2012 by Yellow Flash

[LuCkY*13]

no coz you cant trickjump for obj

 

like in fuel even if has been over 20min you cant jump over fuel walls for obj unless maindoor has been plasted

 

means you can use trickjump to skip those parts do obj in "order".

the rules are clear no TJ to objective and no rush even if the map alows you to do it before the 5 mins..

blowing one gun or the 2 its the same...ITS TJ TO OBJECTIVE..

anyone who dont folow the rules can have theyr XP reseted...<<< rule..

ofc after warnings

[yellow flash]

Sry miss typed can't in can sry for leading missunderstanding

[a dog]

I think that I am one of the more (if not the most) troublesome players if you were to have all the admins vote, so I would like to get some verification on this subject.

On maps with multiple ending objectives that all must be completed for the map to end (such as the north & south anti-tank guns of Siwa Oasis OR the oil valve & motor pump of Oil Kombinat), is it considered rushing to complete only 1 of the objectives in under 5 minutes without any trickjumping?

 

Artanis is the only person that has provided a clear response.

There are some maps like Special Delivery and Siwa Oasis that have 2 objectives to finish the map. On Siwa there are times when one gun is destroyed within a minute or two and it is not an issue unless the second gun is destroyed before the 5 minutes is up.

All of the other responses here only seem to reinforce what the rules already state: Trickjumping to rush the maps is not allowed.

Also what has been interpretted in consensus by admins from the rules: Trickjumping in order to bypass an intermediate objective with the intention of completing a further objective that would not be accessable for the player at that time is not allowed.

Also what the rules don't state at all but the high level admins have decided upon: Rushing the map before 5 minutes has elapsed is not allowed.

 

So in an effort to obtain a community definition of the word 'rushing', I have reviewed every single reference to 'rush' in the 'Enemy Territory Discussion' forum section. A majority consensus seems to be that rushing means trying to end the map early. If this is correct then completing 1 of 2 final objectives is not rushing because 1 of 2 objectives will not end the map early, right?

 

EliteWalMartSecurity did not agree with this during a recent game (honestly not sure if EliteWalMartSecurity was sarcastic or serious as I am a terrible judge of others), but at least according to the forums it appears that Artanis outranks EliteWalMartSecurity.

Just for the record, I'm sticking by Artanis' assessment until someone higher up the chain of command (no offense to Artanis or EliteWalMartSecurity) clearly says otherwise.

I am sure I will get on even more admins' hit lists for this, but it is just so much fun to rock the boat.

 

 

_{Time taken to compose this post: over 2 hours (I must be retarded or something)}

Edited September 11, 2012 by BiPo

[NervousOne]

I see people TJ on FuelDump ALL the time to blow the dump. Not covies either. I see people TJ on Oasis AND Supply Depot BEFORE the gate is blown. They blow a gun or blow the gate they jump. I've seen guys jump the left wall on Marrakech before the tank blows the gate. I am pretty sure most of these situations transpired without even a warning. So there seems to be a consistency gap between your US day admins and the evening admins.

 

Maybe you guys don't count the double-jump built into your server settings as a TJ?

 

I don't really care myself unless someone rushes the map before Kombinat. lol

[RedBaird]

The problem with wj on say, Oasis, and only doing one obj, is that it is quite possible for another on the attacking team to also be planting the other gun. We don't always see or notice the plants. There is also the language problem. Some non-English speakers may not understand the subtlety of just finishing one obj and leave the other until a deadline is passed or a condition obtained.

 

I was spec on my last Oasis map so I could watch over the guns. I saw an ally rushing and was able to put him to spec before he armed his dynamite at a gun. FA admins like to play, too. We don't want to spend all out time hovering over the action. Simple rules are easier to administer. "Yes and No" works well, but "Sometimes Yes and Sometimes No" would complicate the situations too much and give leeway for the Server-Lawyers to argue.

 

A Server-Lawyer would argue that if a teammate wj and hit the tunnel-open switch, and the SL planted, he didn't WJ, so the plant was legal. "No planting before the wall is blown" would also cover this situation with a big NO. Same as with being "accidently" blown over the wall.

 

I haven't seen a high Admin specifically address the "a covie opened the door for me, so I legally planted" situation, which could be within the map-author's parameters, unlike double-jump or low-grav settings. On the other hand, a strict reading of "no planting before wall is down" would cover this situation, too. We all know that many players, and even some regulars, have little honor.

[SunLight]

I see people TJ on FuelDump ALL the time to blow the dump. Not covies either. I see people TJ on Oasis AND Supply Depot BEFORE the gate is blown. They blow a gun or blow the gate they jump. I've seen guys jump the left wall on Marrakech before the tank blows the gate.

I don't know what can be regarded as 'trickjump'. If I jump the barbed wire of the truck barrier, instead of moving around it, is it a jump or a trick jump?

Someone could say it's a jump, because everyone can do it. So the difference would be the amount of skill involved? If everyone, included the lazy beginners, who don't even want to spend a little time to learn how to move (and yes, strafejumps *are* designed to be in the game, read the comment in et source code if you don't believe it) if everyone can do it, then it's a jump, otherwise it's a trickjump?

 

If I jump the side entrance of frostbite without doublejump is it a trickjump? Every player who learned the game can jump over there, only beginners can't (actually I should say noobs, because a beginner is someone who just started, a noob is someone who refuses to learn the real game and all its moves, and plays a different game instead). Doublejump makes things worse, since many jumps become very easy for everyone.

 

And what about other things? If I kill by chance someone with 3 hs it's a 'trickshot', so it should be forbidden?

 

 

I don't care for objectives, so I never rush maps, but imho the whole idea of trickjump is fictitious, we are assuming here that the map designer was so naive and didn't know which movements are possible in the game and which not, like, if they made frostbite wall a bit higher (and if server admins didn't enable doublejump or raised g_speed from the default value of 320, otherwise it should be *much* higher) nobody could jump there.

 

I can quote the book 'playing to win' by David Sirlin here, when he talks about game rules, and he says a rule doesn't make sense unless it's perfectly clear if you break it or not.

 

For example 'no spawnkill' is a laughable rule, since you can't exactly define where the spawn area is, and what to do if someone camping in the spawn area shoots you. In fact, no wonder that in any serious tournament nobody has rules like 'no spawnkill' etc. they have only rules where it's clear if you break them or not.

 

For a rule like 'no trickjump', since it's actually (imho) an arbitrary rule, you must define for every single map what's a tj and what's not, make a big list, and once they discover a new one, you must add it to the list of 'trickjumps'. Or maybe say that objectives should be completed in the sequence the map designer had chosen, provided that there actually is such sequence in every map (but what about coverts, then?).

[Jefke]

Generally, halve of those jumps can't be called trickjumps with double jumps enabled to begin with.

Really, everybody can jump the wall on oasis with double jump.

 

Hell, even I can jump that wall without double jump (and I'm an all time noob to the game, knowing how to strafe jump, just not bothering to do so )

 

btw (let's add to the confusion). If you can't trickjump to rush (which I 'sort of' agree on), you should be allowed to jump that wall on oasis to blow it up from the other side, because you still are doing the objectives in order.

 

I know this add to the confusion, but well trickjumping is part of the game and should be allowed after the 5minutes (you can rush then so what's the problem of trickjumping...)

 

Well, it's not on me to decide the rules. Just to enforce them. Can please a (co-)leader/founder post a clear answer and lock this topic

 

just my 2 cents

 

ps. curious about that comment, going to check it (not that I don't believe you,sunlight, just curious )

[SunLight]

I think a problem is when you wanna make everyone happy, like you wanna have a server for both raters and fraggers, and people who do the obj.

 

It would be easier to have a non obj server where who does the obj is kicked, or much better where mapscripts are changed, in such a way that the map can't end. And an obj server with stopwatch where you can go as fast as possible and end the map, and see if your opponents can do it faster (but in pubs people disconnect, switch team, etc. so maybe it makes no sense).

 

I remember I used to play in a server where you could do the obj as fast as you wanted, but then the map didn't end (it was an etpro server, I don't know if it's possible with jaymod) that way people could do the obj and 'win' but then the map would continue for 'fraggers' to enjoy the game, until the timelimit was hit.

 

ps. curious about that comment, going to check it (not that I don't believe you,sunlight, just curious )

what comment? the book playing to win? It's a bit long, but it's a very interesting read, even if the guy played mostly street fighter there is a lot of good points valid for every game, I knew about it when it was quoted by some etpro player, pity that I can't put it into practice because according to that book i'm a 'scrub' (i.e. I don't play to win) and it's not easy to change

[Jefke]

what comment? the book playing to win? It's a bit long, but it's a very interesting read, even if the guy played mostly street fighter there is a lot of good points valid for every game, I knew about it when it was quoted by some etpro player, pity that I can't put it into practice because according to that book i'm a 'scrub' (i.e. I don't play to win) and it's not easy to change

 

(and yes, strafejumps *are* designed to be in the game, read the comment in et source code if you don't believe it) if everyone can do it, then it's a jump, otherwise it's a trickjump?

 

that comment, I found strafejump. Just can't figure out in what context it's used (not enough knowledge about the code itself ^^).

[Vanaraud]

I think it was clearly stated somewhere: no rushing before 5 min. So why complicate things by starting to define TJ.

 

Also to start questioning why rushing isnt allowed in non stopwatch mode server. Because its not a clan war, we don´t have strict timetable where everybody will be set to play from first second and there are lots of even newbies who just have installed the game and dont know the maps.

Theres also a 2-3 min start time after a map starts where players are allowed to be afk.

So lets say theres 15 vs 15, half are fraggers and rest doesn´t know what to do or just don´t care. And defending team happens to have 2-3 obj oriented guys afk. So one attacking guy just uses DJ, or just "sneaks by"(depending on map) and rushes the map with 2 min. So starting with the afkers, they come back in and discover map is over, they leave. Fraggers\raters don´t get rate, they leave, newbies leave. And server is empty. So in conclusion those who so desperately need to rush could start local server and rush maps there with bots. Because rushing eventually leads to empty server and I guess this is no fun to anyone to play in empty server. Also if majority of players want to enjoy the map why should 1-2 guys have their fun and rush it. As well would 1-2 cheaters allowed. Lets have them have fun on others also.(which we know it will NOT happen in no way.)

And the rules are made very simple 5 min= no rush. Also which comes to interpret TJ and rushing. If you want to play in the edge of knife, then be my guest, but don´t be insulted if different admins let the rules slide more or less. Well I guess its much better than some let you play more than we set strict rules for every move and define them and if you brake it= insta !kick.

 

And as it was said somewhere- in fueldump when gate is not opened no jump(TJ or not; as you can just simply DJ also) to do obj. When gate is opened jump as much as you wish. I think everybody can make the general conclusion about every map here.

So in conclusion just don´t rush it, or if you do you know better. No matter which means you use. Nothing complicated.

And if you are so bored in one team, join the other. Usually other team gets their ass handed to themselves, if you are bored.

[YoMomma]

Vanaraud I absolutly right why are we making this out into a big thing its simple when the map starts and the first place you go is to jump over a wall or get to a door to bypass an objective it is a RUSH plain and simple you have the intent on ending the the map early and that is not allowed so stop people dont like it show some respect for the other players as Vanarud said people leave the severs after the rush and we dont want that we like full servers keep the game clean people

[SunLight]

that comment, I found strafejump. Just can't figure out in what context it's used (not enough knowledge about the code itself ^^).

it's a bit ot, but to satisfy your curiosity:

In the code that defines your speed increase there is a part like this:

#if 1
// q2 style
[...some code here...]
#else
// proper way (avoids strafe jump maxspeed bug), but feels bad
[...other code here...]

so they actually wrote a different code, which didn't give you extra speed by using w+a w+d etc. and moving your mouse in a certain way, but they decided to leave it there and not use it, and use 'quake2 style' instead, because the other one 'feels bad'.

So I guess they thought players were already used to strafejumping or something like that, and they didn't want to remove it. And that is in quake3 source as well.

[a dog]

9 more posts. Alright, this looks promissing, let's see here...

I haven't seen a high Admin specifically address the "a covie opened the door for me, so I legally planted" situation, which could be within the map-author's parameters, unlike double-jump or low-grav settings. On the other hand, a strict reading of "no planting before wall is down" would cover this situation, too.

Does not apply for Oil Kombinat or Special Delivery where there are multiple final objectives that can be reached without disguised covert ops or trickjump/doublejump.

 

I remember I used to play in a server where you could do the obj as fast as you wanted, but then the map didn't end (it was an etpro server, I don't know if it's possible with jaymod) that way people could do the obj and 'win' but then the map would continue for 'fraggers' to enjoy the game, until the timelimit was hit.

Bad idea. I would never leave the jaymod servers if that feature was implemented. I'd lose my job and evetually die of fatigue.

 

its simple when the map starts and the first place you go is to jump over a wall or get to a door to bypass an objective it is a RUSH plain and simple you have the intent on ending the the map early and that is not allowed

Unless there are 2 final objectives in which case doing the first objective does not end the map so you do not have the intent of ending the map early until the first objective is done.

 

So many people are focussing on trickjump and doublejump when that part is mind numbing to define as a rule: trickjump (including doublejump, pushjump, panzerjump, grenadejump or other projectile-assisted or team member assisted jump) to bypass an objective (that you would not be capable of bypassing without aid of another team member) with the intention of completing any map objective (that cannot be reverted, or would end the map upon completion) or opening doors with the intention of providing team members a means by which to complete any map objective (that cannot be reverted, or would end the map upon completion) is not allowed.

 

The even easier question that most people seem to be avoiding or ignoring is if rushing means trying to end a map early, or if it means trying to complete any final objective that might not necessarily lead to ending the map early.

 

If we say that rushing means trying to end a map early, then completing 1 out of a series of final objectives is not rushing because it will not end the map early. It is only once someone completes the remaining final objectives early that it becomes rushing. The rule for this would be by far the simplest: completing a map objective that directly triggers the end of the map before 5 minutes of game time have elapsed is not allowed.

The problem with this idea is if multiple people go for the final objectives at the same time. Individually they are not rushing but as a whole they are rushing.

 

It is much easier for us to say that rushing means trying to complete any final objective early (before 5 minutes have elapsed). This would lead to the slightly more complicated rule: completing a map objective, which by itself or as part of a collection would trigger the end of the map, before 5 minutes of game time has elapsed is not allowed.

 

Just waiting for a level 13+ admin to confirm.

Edited September 13, 2012 by BiPo

[docwarren]

Example here.......

 

Oasis..... blow one gun early, but not the 2nd........ my understanding is it is allowed.