Obamacare is upheld, mostly

[rolf]

Wow....

 

seriously wow...

 

Costs of medical healthcare is about 100 euro's (cheapest variant, covers everything except dentist) a month in the Netherlands and ~200 euro own risk (first part of healthcare which you pay yourself, after that the insurance company covers it). Which literally translates to 100 dollars a month. Per person. It's enforced (penalty if you don't have healthcare), but still it's affordable. As Parrot said, it is cheaper if you don't have a high income and in those cases even lower than that 100$.

 

Yes, the quality drops but that's because at this moment the healthcare is f***ing expensive because f***ing noone can afford it. Now if a lot more people start to use it, yes the ``good doctors'' will be occasionally on other people than the best paying dude. But you won't die due some weird (cureable) illness if healthcare isn't covered and otherwise you won't go bankrupt for the rest of your, probably short, life if you pay it entirely yourself.

 

Nobody gives a flying f@&k about the constitution anymore. If they can force health care on you, what else are they going to be able to force on you?

Yes, they can force things upon you. However in this case, they force you to take care of yourself if you're not capable to do that anyway.

Forcing us to have insurance? I make 1700 a month. My bills are about 1700 a month. Girlfriends unemployed. And my daughter is 7 months old. How tje hell can I afford insurance for them? My work mandates thay we have insurance otherwise I would of opted out to save the 75 bucks a month because I can't afford it as is.

How can you decide that your daughter is not worth of medical healthcare?

 

Here comes euthanasia, when you can't pay they pull the plug...Obama is trying to do something quick before he gets canned.

I have absolutely no idea in which direction you mean this, but if this is a republican opinion then, well... There will be no euthanasia, because the healthcare will cover it.

 

I see the rich (insurance companies) getting richer, and the middle class, and poor getting poorer. Take 2 grand from me. That's almost three months rent. Oh look, now the homeless population increases because of this. So lets mandate all have insurance, with the potential to make more people homeless, and cot more people money, who don't have money to spend. They aren't going to force medicare/medicaid to be expanded, yet they are going to add more people to it if they can't afford it.

The rich get richer because of your tax economy. Many capatalistic countries even have a different tax system.

The insurance people can -indeed- get richer. In other countries there is a supply and demand, also in healthcare, which eventually makes it balanced. Unless there are price agreements.

Trying to force socialism into a capitalist economy. Bound to fail. I expect both the unemployment rate, and the homeless rate to go up. Unemployment because all the healthcare, and people like that who will have to quit jobs because of not having the funding necessary, and the homeless to go up because we have to pay this mandatory insurance, or its taxes, resulting in bills not being paid, going into debt, and eventually losing your house.

how... can... more... request... for... more... healthcare... increase... unemployement...?

Really, that does not make sense. Yes the dots are there for a reason, it took me that long to make that sentense because it doesn't make sense to me.

 

Also, you think that the US is the only capitalistic country. I know many capatalistic countries where they do not let their neighbour die because they can't afford food/healthcare/etc. Socialism can perfectly be combined with capitalism, because the socialism part can be payed from the tax income. It may sound weird, but how do you think the military gets payed? From that same bucket you can pay the healthcare if the bucket is filled enough.

 

How to fill that bucket is a tax-issue problem which I do not want to discuss in this topic; that's an entirely different topic for it.

[parrot]

'We'll have 32 million potential customers who will come in, get treatment and pay,' said Alan Miller, chief executive of University Health Services, a King of Prussia, Pa., company that runs 24 acute-care hospitals around the counter. 'Previously, they got good treatment and said, "We can't pay," he said. Mr. Miller waved off the cuts, saying, 'we will make it up in volume.'"

 

Just fwiw

[docwarren]

Sigh....

 

Cost is 100e? How much is your daily living tax? How much does gas cost? 10-12 us dollars/gal? How much of that is taxes? That is just 1 example.

 

Nothing is free.

 

Everyone will be healthy because they all will go to the doctor? Keep smoking that pipe. Can't force anyone to seek medical care.

 

How long to see an MD in UK for a minor injury? 3 month average? Yeah.... that injury has healed by that time. But not healed correctly which leads to complications. That leads to more treatment than necessary.

 

Medicaid/Medicare is socialistic and it does not work and sure as hell does not pay. It is used as a free pass to any doctor anywhere, anytime. Payment is only about 20% of what is billed.

 

Why are health care costs so much? Answer that question and you will see where health care reform needs to start.

 

Here's the answer to that last question..... Because lawsuits are expensive. Not to mention time consuming. Even if a health care worker (MD, RN, etc) or hospital are found innocent in a frivolous lawsuit, the have to pay millions in court costs, on lawyers, lost time at work.

 

Lawsuit caps, penalties against those who bring about frivolous lawsuits AND their lawyers are the place to start. Result would bring down costs for healthcare ultimately.

 

The cry of "We all need/want/demand health care" has not solved the core problems of the healthcare system.

 

This Obamacare will Only drag this country down and only masks the core problems.

[Pablin]

For all of you worried about socialism, no doubt you heard that stuff from talk radio or Fox news. The truth is that the USA is not even close to socialism. We are a free market capitalist. we´re not even that democratic really. If this helps poor people get health insurance and doesn´t bother anyone else,i.e, raise taxes, why would you be against it?

[docwarren]

Smartmoney.com

 

 

[docwarren]

Smartmoney.com

 

 

[rolf]

Sigh....

 

Cost is 100e? How much is your daily living tax? How much does gas cost? 10-12 us dollars/gal? How much of that is taxes? That is just 1 example.

Well, up to 12K euro a year it's nothing, from 12K to 26K you pay 32%, 26K to 36K 42%, 56K and above 52%. Gas is a lot more expensive, but approx 8 dollar a gallon, twice as much as you I thought.

 

Yes, the tax system is a lot "worse" here. However, we have a lot more social benefits here too, don't forget that. If you have no income (but worked before that) gives you about 70% of minimum wage (=approx 1000 euro bruto a month). You don't have that, that's a large part where you don't have to get taxes from.

 

Nothing is free.

I agree.

 

Everyone will be healthy because they all will go to the doctor? Keep smoking that pipe. Can't force anyone to seek medical care.

That is the other way round of what I mean. You won't seek medical care if it isn't covered/affordable. That isn't the same as when it's covered you seek medical care.

 

How long to see an MD in UK for a minor injury? 3 month average? Yeah.... that injury has healed by that time. But not healed correctly which leads to complications. That leads to more treatment than necessary.

What kind of injury? Every time I needed a doctor I got one straight away, even got a surgery when necessary straight away. Standard health coverage.

 

Medicaid/Medicare is socialistic and it does not work and sure as hell does not pay. It is used as a free pass to any doctor anywhere, anytime. Payment is only about 20% of what is billed.

I don't exactly know what medicaid or medicare is, but in most countries it means that with health insurance, when you go to a doctor, the doctor is payed by the insurance company. And that'll be the full bill, unless the insurance company tells you they are way too expensive and they won't let you allow to see that doctor. They are considering that in the Netherlands (but for hospitals), but I doubt that will come through.

 

Why are health care costs so much? Answer that question and you will see where health care reform needs to start.

You mean why you need to reform it in the US? Probably because the incomes lies a bit differently, although here a good surgeon gets 600K/year too.

 

Here's the answer to that last question..... Because lawsuits are expensive. Not to mention time consuming. Even if a health care worker (MD, RN, etc) or hospital are found innocent in a frivolous lawsuit, the have to pay millions in court costs, on lawyers, lost time at work

 

Lawsuit caps, penalties against those who bring about frivolous lawsuits AND their lawyers are the place to start. Result would bring down costs for healthcare ultimately..

lawsuits are arranged differently in the US than in the netherlands (and I prefer the latter), but you have a point for you there.

 

The cry of "We all need/want/demand health care" has not solved the core problems of the healthcare system.

 

This Obamacare will Only drag this country down and only masks the core problems.

You mean that you can't see how it can be afforded, and that obamacare will destroy your economical situation?

 

Because of many differences between the Netherlands and the US I think you have a point, but it is not the case that it isn't affordable, it is the case that you (mainly: republicans) do not want to change the taxes to make it affordable. I have no idea what Obama is actually doing to make it fit within budget, but I doubt that when he does it your tax world is going to drag the US down.

[Ghostwind]

The advances we have today in medicine only happen because of the current free enterprise society. You WILL see quality of care go down as a direct result of this.

 

Yes the system needs revamped..... but not through this pipe dream.

 

I completely disagree. If this were the case, there would be very little medical innovation outside of the United States, which certainly is not true. I have lived in three different countries (Canada, the United States, and Germany), and have recieved healthcare in all three locations. The care I have gotten has been excellent in all of them. All three of these countries have vastly different medical systems, given that Germany and Canada are single pay systems.

 

Also, most medical innovation comes through universities, and private companies, not through the front-lines of medical care. From what I have understood, the obamacare package does not affect these things, but rather the relationship between patient and insurance company.

 

Change is always scary for people. The same thing happened in Canada when they moved to a universal healthcare system, as what is happening right now in the United States. There were arguements that making the system more public, there would be a degredation in care, and that it was just the government trying to interfere with an individual's relationship with his or her doctor. Practitioners in Canada even went on strike to protest the change (leading to british doctors being flown in to fill in the gaps. Now, and despite the complaints about the system, the vast majority of Canadians treasure the system that they have.

 

This plan might work, then again it might not. But by at least trying to change the system, you are at least you are giving yourself a chance to improve the healthcare of millions of people. Perpetuating and talking about the issue over and over does nothing to solve the problems you have.

[Ghostwind]

Well, up to 12K euro a year it's nothing, from 12K to 26K you pay 32%, 26K to 36K 42%, 56K and above 52%. Gas is a lot more expensive, but approx 8 dollar a gallon, twice as much as you I thought.

 

Yes, everything you said is more or less the same in Germany. In no instance, have I ever had to wait for anything that was urgent. I once bashed my knee up playing hockey really badly, I was to the hospital that night, the next day to my family doctor, and the following week to see an orthopedic specialist. Even with my family doctor here, the typical wait for non-emergency visits is about a 3 days to a week. Acute care is the same day, if not within about an hour of calling.

[rolf]

Yes, everything you said is more or less the same in Germany. In no instance, have I ever had to wait for anything that was urgent. I once bashed my knee up playing hockey really badly, I was to the hospital that night, the next day to my family doctor, and the following week to see an orthopedic specialist. Even with my family doctor here, the typical wait for non-emergency visits is about a 3 days to a week. Acute care is the same day, if not within about an hour of calling.

The only time I had to wait was when I 'scratched' my arm on a window, could see the vain rushing through it but it wasn't broken. Didn't took a lot of time after all, because it wasn't a real emergency, but required a nice fix-up. But on the other hand, 10 years ago when I was ill for 2 days and couldn't keep any solid or fluid food inside (nope, not even water), I called my general practitioner on monday morning and became the first patient, was in the hospital an hour later and three hours later under anaesthetics for an over 2 hour surgery. Within a week another operation, and they were already scheduling a third after 3 weeks because I was suddenly getting worse. Eventually I left exactly 28 days after arrival.

 

In those cases, personally:

1. You want to give everyone that service.

2. You don't want people to go bankrupt on those things. To give a small impression, my 'food' (IV bags) cost about 2000$ for that month. (100fl / day)

The current US system doesn't provide that, and Obamacare is exactly what you will get. So basically, I really don't understand why people are against it.

[Ghostwind]

2. You don't want people to go bankrupt on those things. To give a small impression, my 'food' (IV bags) cost about 2000$ for that month. (100fl / day)

The current US system doesn't provide that, and Obamacare is exactly what you will get. So basically, I really don't understand why people are against it.

 

People are scared of change, and the prospect of things getting worse for them, is one thing. Next, both sides exadurate on the benefits and detriments of the plan, which polarizes people against each other. Both supporters and opponents (see above) want change in the current system. They just disagree on how to do so. Here in Germany, we have a private-public system, which has just messed up things really badly here. You get exactly the same healthcare in the private system as you do in the public system by law here.

 

The private system, however, allows you more comfort, and, faster appointments for non-acute, non-life threatening illnesses. What really messes things up, is that the private insurers are allowed to choose who they take, which dumps the sickest people on to the public healthcare system. This in turn raises cost for the public health insurance members. It is also really irritating when you are denied an appointment with a doctor because you are not private. I was having some vision problems a couple years ago, and I called one doctor who serviced mainly private patients (which I did not know at the time). I was told I could come immediately or two months later. I ended up finding a dr. in the public system, who took me the same day for an appointment, regardless of my coverage. Thank-fully, the private system is going to be shut down here, and we will all go back to a public health insurance.

[parrot]

I think after a few years, we will move to a single payer system. We can save an enormous amount of money in administrative costs, (I've heard in the nieghborhood of 15-20 percent of overall cost) and the entire system will be easier to understand and use.

 

My idea of good healthcare? If you're sick, you make an appointment and get treated. Period. No in network/out of network, no insurance forms, none of that crap. I would pay the extra taxes with no quibble.

 

The government should do only what the private market cannot. Obviously, looking around this country at the number of uninsured/underinsured people, the private market cannot provide universal care. Ergo, imo, the government needs to take over(single payer). For all the vaunted "markets are the most efficient" rhetoric, they are doing a terrible job. These insurance companies are out to make a profit, not heal the people who are sick.

[Ghostwind]

I think after a few years, we will move to a single payer system. We can save an enormous amount of money in administrative costs, (I've heard in the nieghborhood of 15-20 percent of overall cost) and the entire system will be easier to understand and use.

 

My idea of good healthcare? If you're sick, you make an appointment and get treated. Period. No in network/out of network, no insurance forms, none of that crap. I would pay the extra taxes with no quibble.

 

The government should do only what the private market cannot. Obviously, looking around this country at the number of uninsured/underinsured people, the private market cannot provide universal care. Ergo, imo, the government needs to take over(single payer). For all the vaunted "markets are the most efficient" rhetoric, they are doing a terrible job. These insurance companies are out to make a profit, not heal the people who are sick.

 

The problem at the moment for you guys is that politics are so divisive in the US. It will take a very strong president to get that done. I dont see that happening for a long time. I think that the german model might work for you guys, though. The government controls the strings for basic coverage, rates, etc... and the health insurers compete with each other by offering extras. They also compete with each other by tailoring themselves to certain groups, such as IT workers and engineers. So they spend more money to cover illnesses that are most common in these areas of work, and offer less coverage (which isnt that much less in reality) for areas where workers dont get sick so often.

[Waster]

I only read all of page one. I Just hope that Mitt wins and that he repeals obamacare

[Ghostwind]

I only read all of page one. I Just hope that Mitt wins and that he repeals obamacare

 

Care to elaborate? what page out of what did you read?