et server suggestion Improved sorting algorithm for teams.

[prytanis]

For this to make sense, we have to assume what I have noticed about the current k/d system:

• K/D does not reflect Kills per Death, but acts more as a ranking system for a player's effectiveness relating to kills.
  

The K/D of the player that (kills you/you killed) also affects your k/d's change:

• The lower the K/D of the player you killed, the less your K/D increases and the less their K/D decreases.
  
• The higher the K/D of the player you killed, the more your K/D increases and the more their K/D decreases.
  

• The longer you've played (not necessarily xp, since that can reset), the harder for the k/d to change in either direction.
  

When you first join, your k/d is at 1.000. As you play, it slowly approaches a number, which is a fairly accurate measure of your "effectiveness as far as kills"

 

 

Now that we have that out of the way, we can assume that averaging the k/d's is a way to analyze overall skill, assuming each team has equal number of members. Since that can't happen with an odd number of players, we remove the dividing by number of players, and instead compare sums of each team's K/D.

=================================================================================================================================================

I will try to explain this without being too mathematical in my explanation so that the concept will be easy to understand.

 

(We will do a more realistic example later on, but for now, let's use a basic example to show the concept)

 

Let's assume we have 10 players. For simplicity sake, we'll say each players has the respective k/d of {1.0, 2.0, 3.0 ...}

 

As it works now, teams are arranged by alternating the skill onto each team:

 

Team 1: 10, 8, 6, 4, 2

Team 2: 9, 7, 5, 3, 1

 

We can represent this as "ABAB..." arrangement.

 

If we sum each team, we get:

 

Team 1: 10+8+6+4+2 = 30

Team 2: 9 + 7 + 5 + 3 + 1= 25

 

Diff: 5

 

That's a pretty substantial difference. Let's average them since each team has 5 players:

 

Team1: 30/5 = 6

Team 2: 25/5 = 5

 

Diff: 1

 

====-=-=-====

The method by which I believe will work more effectively is using an ABBAABBA... arrangement.

 

Team 1: 10, 7, 6, 3, 2

Team 2: 9, 8, 5, 4, 1

 

If we sum, we get:

 

Team 1: 10+7+6+3+2 = 28

Team 2: 9+8+5+4+1 = 27

 

Diff: 1

 

We can average these, since there are an equal number of players per team:

 

28/5 = 5.6

27/5 = 5.4

 

Diff: 0.2

 

 

ABAB ABBA

 

5 > 1

1 > 0.2

Looks much closer to me.

 

 

 

 

More realistic example:

 

For this, I recorded the k/d's of players on Hardcore at the time of me writing this.

 

14 players:

 

3.826

3.613

3.002

2.641

2.454

1.881

1.697

1.480

1.280

1.185

1.125

1.113

0.587

0.390

 

With how current shuffling works (ABAB), the sums are:

 

Team 1: 13.971 Ave: 2.00

Team 2: 12.303 Ave: 1.75

 

Diff: 1.668

Ave Diff: .25

 

With ABBA..., the sums are:

 

Team 1: 13.381 Ave: 1.91

Team 2: 12.893 Ave: 1.84

 

Diff: 0.488

Ave Diff: 0.07

 

ABAB ABBA

1.668 > 0.488

.25 > 0.07

 

Yet again, ABBA is more effective at balancing teams. If you have any examples in which you believe ABAB is more effective, by all means post it here.

 

 

 

 

<3 dempa

Edited April 2, 2012 by prytanis

[RoosterCogburn]

Kind of riding on this guys topic about the K/d system:

 

I also want to add that when the shuffler shuffles the teams, the highest K/D should be on ALLIES not AXIS. That is my opinion. Teams always get stacked on axis because people don't want to "go up against" the highest k/d so they just join their team, which is almost always axis. Unbalanced teams have been a huge problem in HC lately, at least from what I have seen. And there is really nothing we can do about it because teams get auto shuffled every few maps. I think this could be a good start.

[TulsaGeoff]

Not a bad idea for the shuffling algorithm. I want a command that can be used to force even the teams whenever players refuse to even up teams. It could either take into consideration the KD of the player to move a player to the smaller team or be completely random. Either option would be a nice improvement to commands available to server admins.

[Mavi]

If we sum each team, we get:

 

Team 1: 10+8+6+4+2 = 40

Team 2: 9 + 7 + 5 + 3 + 1= 25

 

Diff: 15

 

--

 

Am I misunderstandig the whole concept, or should that first number be 30?

Still, it would only be 6 - 5 in that case, which isn't as even as the 5.6 - 5.4

[Liquid]

If we sum each team, we get:

 

Team 1: 10+8+6+4+2 = 40

Team 2: 9 + 7 + 5 + 3 + 1= 25

 

Diff: 15

 

 

Number should be 30, probably a typing error.

He told me about this idea and I didn't understand it much so i told him to come post it here. I REALLY hate whenever there is a shuffle on HC because it completely makes the teams unfair/stacked rather than making them fair. I would like this it be looked into to see if it is possible to be done because it seems to make more sense.

 

Sorry for no LaTeX you were looking for bud

[prytanis]

Not a bad idea for the shuffling algorithm. I want a command that can be used to force even the teams whenever players refuse to even up teams. It could either take into consideration the KD of the player to move a player to the smaller team or be completely random. Either option would be a nice improvement to commands available to server admins.

 

That's totally doable. Sum each team, take the difference, divide by 2 (to account for the swing), and find the player with the closest k/d to that value and move them. If someone can send me the current F|A config files, I can implement the changes. (first removing any rcon/ref/passwords)

 

The swing, for those who may ask, refers to, assuming the sums of A and B are respectively 20 and 25, moving a player with 2.5 (half the difference) from B to A would change the sums to 22.5 and 22.5.

 

Kind of riding on this guys topic about the K/d system:

 

I also want to add that when the shuffler shuffles the teams, the highest K/D should be on ALLIES not AXIS. That is my opinion. Teams always get stacked on axis because people don't want to "go up against" the highest k/d so they just join their team, which is almost always axis. Unbalanced teams have been a huge problem in HC lately, at least from what I have seen. And there is really nothing we can do about it because teams get auto shuffled every few maps. I think this could be a good start.

 

Also doable.

 

 

EDIT: I changed the sum on the example from 40 to 30 (and following calculations), as Mavi pointed out, is the correct sum of Team 1.

Edited April 2, 2012 by prytanis

[Antichrist]

If the founders choose to implement this system, could it be done without sending you our config files?

 

I personally would feel more secure having our founders do the actual changes. It's not that I don't trust you, I'm just not sure if there's a malevolent agenda behind this.

[prytanis]

If the founders choose to implement this system, could it be done without sending you our config files?

 

I personally would feel more secure having our founders do the actual changes. It's not that I don't trust you, I'm just not sure if there's a malevolent agenda behind this.

 

A malevolent agenda? That sounds rather demonizing...of course it's up to F|A who edits the files, I'm simply offering my services since I don't believe the algorithm is written in a complicated way, thus is something I am willing and able to do.

[Antichrist]

Well as I just explained on xfire, I'm only looking out for F|A, and nothing more. It has nothing to do with anything personal I have against you, I'm just cautious by nature..

 

And I do appreciate the time and work you put into your suggestion. It's not a simple server suggestion by any means, and I can appreciate the amount of work you put into it, so thank you.

Edited April 2, 2012 by Antichrist

[DreadBlade]

I'm not particularly good at math stuff, but if it helps then I'm all for it lol

[JoeDirt]

Dempoo don't create multiple accounts, you are already registered as Bennet Talpers. Also this is not something that we could implement. Maybe post on Silent mod forums.

[prytanis]

Dempoo

 

How nice to see you.

 

Don't create multiple accounts, you are already registered as xxxxx xxxx. Also this is not something that we could implement. Maybe post on Silent mod forums.

 

Would you mind not posting my real full name to the forums, and delete that account as I do not wish to go under that name?

[JoeDirt]

Ok Bennet Talpers I mean Dempoo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQyQOPklmkg

[prytanis]

Ok Bennet Talpers I mean Dempoo.

 

Clearly you have no concern for the well-being of your servers, nor the ability to spell a name that is right in front of you.

Good day, JooDirt.

 

If anyone else has any concerns on the actual thread topic, being improving the well-being of the servers, and not my plans to save the environment, post them here.

Edited April 3, 2012 by prytanis

[TulsaGeoff]

Ugh a fanatical global warming environmentalist group

Edited April 3, 2012 by TulsaGeoff