middle east situation\condition

[Pablin]

thanks freez, but we have AIPAC to help form our decisions for us already. lol

[LuCkY*13]

I like you a lot Freez..but what you think about the wall constructed?....and about the enbargus maked to palestina...do you think Israel have the power to make or unmake a enbargus or a wall separing 2 countrys...????

and the territorys comquered by Israel between 1946 and today...you gonna excuse me but the time of the comquests are ended for me it was in the time of the war whit swords and catapults...for me ofc..

Cuz how you feel that Israel expropriate vilages and theyr familys of theyr houses..??? me if my country did that i would not feel good for sure..;

its like spain enter portugal to comquest territorys..;or the police of spain enter portugal to arrest ppl...whitch is completly prohibited...by the laws of the new world..the world of Democracy...for example the advanced weapon technology in weapons in israel and the olds AK's from the 50's of the palestina...

The land of israel was given in 46 cuz of the 2nd WW..and i will share a pic showing the advance after that...for me its like i give a bit of my yard to my neighbour and every day that pass he try to win a meter more by the use of force...

 

 

its just not fair for me...

 

I hope you dont gt mad at me cuz like i sayd i concider you a friend you beeing israel or not...i dont care i just treath you by the Good person you are...

and i hope you continue to be..

Nothing against you

<3

Edited July 7, 2012 by LuCkY13**

[CSL]

I really would like to know How Israel views the US. I know Most of the stuff that the media feeds us is inaccurate and/or embellished to shade to one point of view or another. So I've tried to listen these past 40 years and tried to piece the truth together from all the clutter. My take is that Israel is our friend and that we are willing to do a lot to help. But I see it as a case of not knowing which way to jump during the last 15 or so years.

 

Has the US lost respect In Israel or are we tried and true friends at this point?

 

Do you see a solution to the problems or are we all just coasting along waiting for the next crisis to come up?

 

It doesn't seem to me that anything good can happen until Palestine is willing to go to the peace table (and mean it).

 

What do You think the US role should be or how should our role change?

 

What about the UN?

 

Just asking for your thoughts. Also How would you answer CSL ?

 

At this point I think a lot of Americans are tired of being the worlds "police". However I don't think our Government is....

 

sorry if this is confusing/rambling

 

<p>First of all I think the relationship between Israel and the United States is very strong. Israel is a democracy in a sea of tyranical Sultanates. Israel is also on the forefront of many technologies that are shared with the United States. As far as the United States as the Worlds Police not sure about that one. The US involvement in the middle east has been contrversial since the first gulf war in 1991. Its unfortunate that Islamic radicalism has become the norm in most Mid-east countries especially those that were typically secular such as Lebanon and Egypt. For those who would say that the Palestinians get the short end of the stick I agree because their leadership is more interested in pushing Israel into the sea than in living side by side. As far as the wall what do you expect? Terrorists cross into the country and kill innocent families in their homes or blow up city buses, so its a matter of safety. Does anyone complain about the fences going up between Mexico and the southern US? Sometimes the necassary things are unpleasant. To the comment that Israel was established due to what happened in WW2 I disagree. Jewish self determination was already in full gear from the turn of the 20th century. WW2 only galvinized that determination to say never again would the Jewish people allow themselves to be shuttled off in cattle cars to be sent to their deaths in concentration camps. Unforurtunately until the Palestinians decide to recognize Israel and elect leaders interested in coming to a long term solution nothing will change. The United Nations is just a toothless tiger with its own agenda and tbh doesnt do a damn thing for the world in general. I would gladly live in peace with those who would agree that I too have the basic human right to live in peace.

[DoC.FreeZeX]

"pushing Israel into the sea than in living side by side." Lamfo, this is the exectly same prhase.

Nothing to add to be honest, CSL pretty much said it all. I do however want to answer lucky13.

1. its ok and im not mad or you or something like that wouldn't open this topic at first place otherwise .

2. im glad you did mention it:

**do notice ur last picture is not updated since we're living in 2012 and lots of things has changed- we gave few of our northen lands because we hoped it will show the world and the arabs who live around us that our determination about peace and what we're willing to do in order to have one.. however none of this happent**

 

1946-the white areas were BOUGHT fully by jewish people from around the world, we didnt steal it nor fight for it, we BOUGHT it fair and square .

1947- this is the the WOLD has decided to give us, we said "thank you" and nothing else- 1 hour later after this declaration 6arabs countries has declared WAR against the newly born israel.( this means that people who just survived the holocaust and came to israel had to FIGHT yet again for their freedom, for their right to LIVE peacfully like every other HUMAN BEEN. people who just survive the nazi killing machine had to fight yet again for their rights to exists). shame on the world because no one prevented it and we were alone in this battle. needless to say we somehow won, won against 3 well trained armies(eypt srya levanon).

1947-1967- funny fact that this map forgot to mention is that we didnt only take this area, we also conquered all of the sinai Penisula- the israely army could reach to eygpt cairo but our governament has decided to stop it and end it. after the peace agrement with eygpt we gave them the penisula right away.(we fought against 3well trained armies won, didnt whipe them out, gave them back the lands we took and stoped there... unlikely they would do the same in this situation).

1967-2000 - yet again they attack us, we fight back and keeping the trains in our castidy in order to prevent them from attacking us again.

 

back in 2003 i think we did give back most of the north lands we took at 67, in my point of view what happent during this wars is this: (and i'll write it as a little kid):

 

1. arabs are attacking israel in order to "push Israel into the sea "

2. Israel fight back.

3. Israel win the war and take some lands from them in order to push the fighting limit away from the center of israel.

4. then the arab countries *cry* - "give us our lands back". ... maybe im acting like a little child here but why should i give back something i got? would be OK to ask that if we were the first to attack but thats not the case and i hope you guys know it.

 

@pablin i didnt undertstand you.

 

They're starting a war with us, losing and then hope there will be no results to this kind of behavior?. im glad israel build this wall between us and gaza strip since it stoped many infentries to get into israel and murder israeli people. i've never seen a SINGLE israeli soldier nor a citizen going into gaza strip with a bomb planing to kill as masny as possible and all in the name of "Alla" and since he'll probably get 72 virgins in heaven.

 

If you attacked some one and lost- except consequences.

like the attack on the twins building which led USA to a war against iraq.

@lucky13- if you're neighbour were throwing stones at you and shoting you everyday for the last 62years, and then all of a suddent decided to attack you and infentrate into ur home, im assuming you'de call the police- unfortunetlly the UN does nothing.

 

[Ghostwind]

When it comes to the political situation my advice is do not believe everything you read in the media. Secondly while there are some radicals on both sides I believe there will never be peace in the moddle east because many of our neighbors do not recognize our right to exist. I really feel bad for the average Palestinian that they have leaders thatdont do whats best for the people. The palestinians have passed up many oppurtunities to have their own state starting in 1948, all because they deny the right of Israel to exist. The other funny thing in the media and UN that demonizes Israel, Israel provides food shelter medical assistance to all, and yet is vilified as the terrible oppressor, yet in Syria where Bashar Assad has been killing thousands of his own people for the last year the UN nor any Western country says a word about it.

 

I think the key statement you made here is that there are radicals on both sides, and neither side of the debate has totally clean hands; unfortunately it is these people that make the news for alegedly slaughtering palastinian children or murdering innocent Israeli bystanders. This really undermines the work on both sides to come to a peaceful solution.

[Pablin]

"pushing Israel into the sea than in living side by side." Lamfo, this is the exectly same prhase.

Nothing to add to be honest, CSL pretty much said it all. I do however want to answer lucky13.

1. its ok and im not mad or you or something like that wouldn't open this topic at first place otherwise .

2. im glad you did mention it:

**do notice ur last picture is not updated since we're living in 2012 and lots of things has changed- we gave few of our northen lands because we hoped it will show the world and the arabs who live around us that our determination about peace and what we're willing to do in order to have one.. however none of this happent**

 

1946-the white areas were BOUGHT fully by jewish people from around the world, we didnt steal it nor fight for it, we BOUGHT it fair and square .

1947- this is the the WOLD has decided to give us, we said "thank you" and nothing else- 1 hour later after this declaration 6arabs countries has declared WAR against the newly born israel.( this means that people who just survived the holocaust and came to israel had to FIGHT yet again for their freedom, for their right to LIVE peacfully like every other HUMAN BEEN. people who just survive the nazi killing machine had to fight yet again for their rights to exists). shame on the world because no one prevented it and we were alone in this battle. needless to say we somehow won, won against 3 well trained armies(eypt srya levanon).

1947-1967- funny fact that this map forgot to mention is that we didnt only take this area, we also conquered all of the sinai Penisula- the israely army could reach to eygpt cairo but our governament has decided to stop it and end it. after the peace agrement with eygpt we gave them the penisula right away.(we fought against 3well trained armies won, didnt whipe them out, gave them back the lands we took and stoped there... unlikely they would do the same in this situation).

1967-2000 - yet again they attack us, we fight back and keeping the trains in our castidy in order to prevent them from attacking us again.

 

back in 2003 i think we did give back most of the north lands we took at 67, in my point of view what happent during this wars is this: (and i'll write it as a little kid):

 

1. arabs are attacking israel in order to "push Israel into the sea "

2. Israel fight back.

3. Israel win the war and take some lands from them in order to push the fighting limit away from the center of israel.

4. then the arab countries *cry* - "give us our lands back". ... maybe im acting like a little child here but why should i give back something i got? would be OK to ask that if we were the first to attack but thats not the case and i hope you guys know it.

 

@pablin i didnt undertstand you.

 

They're starting a war with us, losing and then hope there will be no results to this kind of behavior?. im glad israel build this wall between us and gaza strip since it stoped many infentries to get into israel and murder israeli people. i've never seen a SINGLE israeli soldier nor a citizen going into gaza strip with a bomb planing to kill as masny as possible and all in the name of "Alla" and since he'll probably get 72 virgins in heaven.

 

If you attacked some one and lost- except consequences.

like the attack on the twins building which led USA to a war against iraq.

@lucky13- if you're neighbour were throwing stones at you and shoting you everyday for the last 62years, and then all of a suddent decided to attack you and infentrate into ur home, im assuming you'de call the police- unfortunetlly the UN does nothing.

 

hey dude, please get your facts right. in 1967, no one attacked Israel, Israel started the war, saying it was a preemptive strike. also, Israel really started with the Balfour declaration back in 1916. It was shown evident that Iraq had nothing to do with the 9/11, we attacked Iraq most likely for natural resources and strategic positioning, ie. petroleum. bases. again, not sure where you´re getting your facts from but regardless of your views, you should probably check your facts.

 

Also, Israel had no right to attack anyone, contrary to what you may believe. I also highly doubt that Israel wants, peace. It seems to me they want land, war and repression, which is why Israel needs a marketing firm, lobbies and financial influence, to help shape world and especially US opinion regarding Israel. If Israel did things correctly, they wouldn´t need to spend billions of dollars on propaganda.

 

My opinions are highlighted in red. Facts are in black.

[Ghostwind]

Guys,

 

Please remember to keep things civil. I can see things already heading down the wrong path here... This really is not the right place to be discussing this.

[CSL]

Guys,

 

Please remember to keep things civil. I can see things already heading down the wrong path here... This really is not the right place to be discussing this.

 

I think things have been pretty civil in this thread. I totally disagree with Pablin but he is more than entitled to his opinion.

[DoC.FreeZeX]

You're right about who attack first tho israel did attac in order to prevent been attacked.

http://www.zionism-i...dic/6daywar.htm

"Israel, according to Arab rhetoric, had no right to exist, and was referred to as "The Zionist entity." Defeating and destroying Israel and "reversing the results of 1948" became central goals of Arab political rhetoric. Prestige and leadership of the Arab world were based on leadership in confrontation of Israel.

Gamal Abdul Nasser and his fellow officers had taken power in Egypt, in order they claimed, to modernize the country and undo the shame of the lost 1948 war".

 

"we attacked Iraq most likely for natural resources and strategic positioning, ie. petroleum. bases" it doesnt make the attack right whatso ever.

And do notice you wrote most likely since you're(propaply?) not sure about it.

"Israel had no right to attack anyone" same goes for usa at that time mate(iraq).

 

Unlike USA who most likely attacked iraq for what you've mentioned, Israel started the war since it had a solid evidance that we're going to be attacked. You said you belive israel just want land, how ever history shows yet again that we gave up on sinai, and if you'll read this:

http://en.wikipedia....engagement_plan

it did happen eventually.

saying israel just want land ignore this things dont you think?

[Pablin]

I¨m not pro USA btw, so let´s just forget about the Iraq thing, it was just to counter your 9/11 comment from the previous post.

 

You gave up on Sinai? That implies you had the right to go in to Sianai. What other parts of the world do you think Israel has rights to? Will Australia be next? Or Canada?

[CSL]

 

You gave up on Sinai? That implies you had the right to go in to Sianai. What other parts of the world do you think Israel has rights to? Will Australia be next? Or Canada?

 

A bit of an exaggeration dont you think?

[DoC.FreeZeX]

You might have missunderstand me. I do not think israel has a right to take anypart of the world. And yes, we gave up sinai- it doesnt implies we had the rights to take it, but yet again you're attacking only israel deeds and give no concern at all to the arabain conduct against Israel.

Im not saying nor implling that israel did the right things(maybe we were wrong every single time) but right now it doesnt even matter since it was and still is a matter of life and death when it comes to the situation in here.

Israel is been forced into a do or die situation so ya i prefer doing insted of dying.

Im not saying and never actually did say that israel got hands with no blood on them, i do however say that from the moment israel became a country we've been denied by the arabain world consistanly.

 

I am aware to the fact that there's no Palestinians here to give us the other side of the story, i just hope that if there were any you would ask them this questions as well regarding their acts.

regarding sinai- we had no rights to take it but we had the right to protect ourself from any kind of Threat.

 

I'm getting the feeling that you have the general idea that (correct me if im wrong) israel love war, love to fight and only want the lands around her(you said it your self didnt you?). im here to tell you that you're wrong about this mate.

 

canada?australia? nahh.. way to far.. i prefer england or maybe spain .

 

The point is that both sides stucked up in their own point of view for way to many years, but i can promise you tha: israel is willing to "talk peace" (this is how i need to say it?) but not at any price.

[Wonderful]

Cool read so far. As I am out of "likes" for the day, I'll compliment Waster on his wonderful questions. Thank you Doc and CSL for bein' here.

 

My personal opinion is generally hostile to religious motivations. I think they are underlying the conflict. I mean couldn't have Jews bought land somewhere else than Israel? Buy out Hawaii or something! In some part isn't the fight over religious claims to an area? I guess I don't know how Israelies see this... I'm prolly simplifying it but that's how I see it.

 

That said, I am very sympathetic to Israel for the reasons CSL cited for Americans in general: that the Israelies are democratic in a way that doesn't reflect the thug and mob behavior behind some neighboring governments. The military aid given has been and will continue to be warranted.

[DoC.FreeZeX]

Tbh the first plan was "Oganda" but we didnt get it (im not kidding about it, the first suggestion was Oganda back at the old days) unfortunetlly we didn't get it and got parts of israel-im not complaning because at least we got something.

[Bosman]

Israel wants to live in peace and pre-emptive strikes ensure that. One sign of weakness and their neighbors are happy to destroy them all together. Truth be told many Arabs live in peace in Israel, no one tells you that though. People just eat up messages of hate, what is with that?

Israel was a wasteland in much of the land before the Jewish people populated it, not many wanted to live there, they have since planted millions of trees and have had rains again. I have included a factual article re-enforcing my statement. No one did crap for the land before they came to take possession and live there. Palestinians didn't even want to be there, .I am not a jew but i do know the land has been turned around and very fruitful since. "By 1886, the Ottoman Turks still ruled the land, but had let it decline to desert and swamp"

 

 

Israel bought the land first

 

 

 

Israel did not steal any of its lands. Jews, as far back as Abraham and Jacob, bought them. In some cases they bought it back.

Ancient history of Israel

 

Abraham bought the first of many parcels of land that would become Israel. Specifically, he bought the Cave of Machpelah from Ephron the Hittite in 1858 BC. (Sarah, his first wife, died in that year.) The price: 400 shekels of silver. (Genesis chapter 23)

Sar Kenan. Here Abraham first came into Israel. (Photo: CNAV)

 

Jacob bought another parcel of land near the city of Shechem, for 100 “pieces” of silver. (Genesis 33:19)

Besides these land purchases, Abraham, and his son Isaac after him, made treaties with the Avvites, under King Abimelech. These Avvites lived in modern Gaza. By their treaties, Abraham gained title to land in the Negev, including Beersheba. The Avvites were the first people whom the Bible called “Philistines,” a name that can mean either “immigrants” or “invaders.” In fact, Isaac had to re-negotiate Abraham’s original treaty, after Abimelech broke it. The quarrel was about the oldest subject in the Middle East: water. (Genesis 26:18-25) Abraham had dug wells in the region. The Avvites stopped them up. Isaac sought to reopen them, and the Avvite shepherds repeatedly rand them off, until finally Abimelech asked for a permanent peace treaty.

Most people, even those who read the Bible, don’t remember these passages. They show that Jacob’s tribe, the ancestors of Israel, were notlandless nomads. In the years before the Great Famine, they held the clear title to at least three land parcels.

Then came the Great Famine that affected Egypt and the rest of the Middle East. Jacob’s son Joseph, as grand vizier of Egypt, sold grain to his brothers. Then, with the blessing of his boss the Pharaoh, Joseph invited all his extended family to come to Egypt to stay. This Sojourn lasted 215 years, and ended with the Great Exodus (1491 BC). Forty years after that, the Israelites swept into Canaan and began to possess, or re-possess, the land. The Divine land grant (see Joshua) extends from the Mediterranean to the Jordan River, and even beyond. (How far beyond is debatable even among Bible scholars.)

That land grant also extends to the Golan Heights. That region has a very rich Jewish history, according to the Jewish Virtual Library. Tel Dan, one of two “high places” that King Jeroboam I set up as places to worship other than Jerusalem, stands here. So does Sar Kenan, or the Gate of Canaan, where Abraham first entered the land.

From Rome to the Baghdad Caliphate

 

But the most remarkable site by far is Gamla, the “Masada of the North.” A fortified synagogue, where the Jews fought the first battle against the Romans (under the future Emperor Vespasian) in AD 67, stands on that hill. An ancient Roman mounted crossbow, or “scorpion” (in Latin, catapulta), still stands on a higher hill overlooking the site.

The Romans won the day, but they did not remove the Jews from the region. The Jewish presence even in the Golan Heights continued until 636, when the Arabs kicked out the Byzantines.

The Jews buy Israel back

 

The Baghdad Caliphate gave way to the Ottoman Empire. By 1886, the Ottoman Turks still ruled the land, but had let it decline to desert and swamp. In that year, the first Jews started to buy the land back. The Ottomans at first sold it willingly, because they did not think that anyone could make the land fertile again. The Jews proved otherwise. That’s when the trouble began.

Jews bought the rest of the land that would become Israel in the same way. The Jewish National Fund bought its first parcels in 1903. Baron Benjamin de Rothschild bought his first land earlier, when settlers from the First Aaliyah, at Rishon-le-Zion, asked him to. (In 1900, he gave his lands away to the Jewish Colonization Association.)

As they did in the Golan Heights, the Jews planted trees and developed new irrigation methods to reclaim the land. They bought the land from absentee Ottoman landlords, and in many cases hired the Arab tenants to work for them.

The Golan Heights

 

The Jewish Virtual Library also shows that Jewish organizations had bought land in the Golan Heights and farmed it as recently as 1947. In that year, French Mandatory Syria became independent Syria. Syrian armies immediately chased the Jews off the land. The only reason that Syria “owned” it was that the British traded it away to the French in 1923.

Israel would finally take the land back in the 1967 War. Your editor has seen it since. Before, it was mostly desert, except for the eucalyptus trees that the Syrians planted around their bunkers. Now it is as fertile as it ever was.

 

 

 

 

Farming in the Golan Heights. Only after Israel recaptured the Golan did these farms spring up again. (Photo: CNAV)

 

Where does Israel go from here?

 

Aaron Klein (Schmoozing with Terrorists) now reports that even before President Obama made his State Department speech, US diplomats were talking about trading away the Golan Heights. The idea is to throw a bone to Bashir Assad, so that he can stay in power in Syria. The Obama administration believes that Assad would be easier to deal with than those now protesting his rule. But easy to deal with or not, Assad has no right to the Golan Heights. The Jews bought that land first. That Britain traded it away to France, who then left it to Syria, doesn’t change that. So the land belongs to Israel, not only by right of conquest, but by right of free purchase.

Furthermore, the earlier land buys (Abraham and Jacob) and treaties (Abraham and Isaac) clearly show that Israel has had a title to the land going back for thousands of years. The Arabs came as conquerors in 636, until the Ottomans took over. The Ottomanssold Israel back to the Jews. The Arabs have no claim to Israel, except by force. Force should not prevail here, in the face of clear prior claims that follow from voluntary consent.

 

 

People join the club for anti-jewish sentiments so quickly and easily, it is expected as the scripture says it will be so for them. Along with the greatest blessings the greatest strife will always accompany them. I for one stand with them. Are the Jewish people perfect, by no means are they but then everyone falls short. Weather you believe scripture or God, he does promise to return His people to the promised land which is Israel and we witness it in our lifetimes. Is it chance they get it back? Chance is as likely as much as a bunch of random space matter was the beginning of creating synapses and memories in my human mind.

 

 

Source: http://www.conservat...the-land-first/

I left the link out because of the location of the link could link me to a mindset whereas my point is not fitting any camp. But now that you posted it i guess there it is.

Edited July 9, 2012 by Bosman