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Obama Care in the U.S.A.

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#46
Malokyte

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ugh people are writing too much... let me just say this. i think health care needs to be reformed. but goverment takeover is not the rite option. like i said earlier if they cant run medicare and medicaid why are we giving them the power to run everyones healthcare. also i dont want any goverment a**h**** telling people who lives and dies.


Fred, all socialist programs by the American government have failed because they distorted them into a capitalist venture.

Medicare had been distorted due to legislative reforms which turned the whole purpose of Medicare on its head. 2003, the Medicare Prescription Drug, Improvement, and Modernization Act extended coverage over prescription drugs, but basically allowed drug companies to sky rocket the costs of the drugs. More costs per drug, and more people capable of getting it. Essentially a transfer of wealth from the government to a private company. Not the purpose of government.

This act in turn affected Medicaid negativly as well.

Social Security was ruined by Raegan when he allowed companies to dip into Social Security funds and keep the balance on credit. A common practice during his time was buying a company, then stripping all the Social Security benefits the company had generated, then letting it die. Raegonomics taken to the capitalist extreme. This also destroyed small businesses that Republicans say they try to help, because larger companies would have access to greater capital to "re-invest" in more jobs. Which they didn't. Big surprise. What they actually did was buy smaller companies, then do said stripping of benefits, then kill it. So instead

It's because of Raegonomics that the economy is in the state it is in the first place, due to mass deregulation of the financial industry and the favoring of big business. Which was the cause of the economic depression in the 30's.


And you have to realize, the government does not decide who lives or dies. That was Republican slander designed to generate resistance to health care reform. In actuality, it would provide end-of-life counselling. Basically, explain the whole process that would be done to keep the person alive, how they could expect to live, and then ask them if they wanted to go through with it. It all comes down to the patient.

What's more likely to happen in this current system is the doctor deciding whether the patient lives or dies. And while that might seem like a better choice, its really not. The Hippocratic Oath is not something doctors have to be held up to. If the doctor believes it would be more profitable to pull the plug on somebody, chances are that they would do it, regardless of oath.


And if you don't want a "government a**h**** telling people who lives and dies" ask them to stop funding the military.


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#47
NoGooD

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Here you go to a doctor's office, and you actually see the doctor for like 5 minutes. He doesnt know your name, he doesnt know who you are. If you call in with an "emergency", he wont pick up the phone. If you have an itchy nose, they prescribe antibiotics, if you have a cough, they prescribe antibiotics. If you have a stain on your forehead, they prescribe antibiotics.... what kinda doctor is that? If I knew it was that easy to be a doctor.. JUST PRESCRIBE ANTIBIOTICS... dude.. I'd become one

LOL....you should. Your pt.s would love you. I agree whole heartedly with you about the overuse of antibiotics.


Besides, overuse of antibiotics are the cause of those super resistant bacterias that have been killing people here and there.. but who cares right??


For one...I care. It affects me and several of my friends on a daily basis. Watching someone die because they were bit by a brown recluse and decided to debride their hand by themselves and it became infected with VRE or MRSA and develops into NF isn't fun. While I haven't see that exact scenario, I have seen something very similar and can promise you it was a sad thing to witness. And yes..I did just go there Phan. <_<


Back home, you go to a doctor's office... to see the doctor.. no nurse, no PA.. you are with the doctor, from the beginning to the end. They know who you are, why you are there. You can actually have access to their cellphone number, personal email, etc. You can actually talk to THEM at an emergency.Plus, if you have anything wrong.. they will examine, run tests, before they prescribe stuff without knowing what u got.

Sorry Fem, I'm not familiar enough with you to know where your from. My guess is that the doctors there have more protection from litigation than those in the US. If you talk to any current medical students, you'll likely find that a large majority of them will not become general practitioners. The incidence of lawsuit is to high from Pt's who feel either their diagnoses or treatment wasn't enough or despite warnings, the possible side effects they ended up experiencing were detrimental to their well being. Long story short...there is a large absence of general practitioners and other genres of medical practitioners.

#48
NoGooD

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:cry I had to double post due to an abundance of quotes.

And you have to realize, the government does not decide who lives or dies. That was Republican slander designed to generate resistance to health care reform. In actuality, it would provide end-of-life counselling. Basically, explain the whole process that would be done to keep the person alive, how they could expect to live, and then ask them if they wanted to go through with it. It all comes down to the patient.


I would really appreciate the opportunity to know where you got this information.

In the hospitals I've worked at...in fact all hospitals I've either worked at or done rotations at, there is either a doctor or a social worker working with the doctor that provides end of life counseling either directly to the pt. or to the person who has power of attorney, and generally all family involved as to what to expect, give them options and explain everything in a detailed manner.

There is in fact a movement by doctors, hospitals and other medical outlets to help people plan for their advance directives.


What's more likely to happen in this current system is the doctor deciding whether the patient lives or dies. And while that might seem like a better choice, its really not. The Hippocratic Oath is not something doctors have to be held up to. If the doctor believes it would be more profitable to pull the plug on somebody, chances are that they would do it, regardless of oath.And if you don't want a "government a**h**** telling people who lives and dies" ask them to stop funding the military.


Are you basing this statement on something like Hagens 96' article: Physician Credentialing: Economic Criteria Compete with the Hippocratic Oath.

So answer me this question. If your loved one had some type of event, trauma or medical with no chance of living a normal life without being connected to a ventilator, given pain medication hourly to try and control the excruciating pain they were in as their muscles atrophy and limbs rot away due to onset of diabetes. Blood pressure medication to try and stabilize their BP, normal saline around the clock to help keep their osmotic pressure stable and keep them hydrated, food pumped into their stomach every 4-6 hours through an nasogastric tube.
How long would you keep them on? A few hours? Week? Months? Years? Even if it costs millions of dollars. Are you going to pay for that out of your pocket? Should everyone around you pay for it? At what point is a good time to stop palliative care and let nature take its course? Is it better to leave a person on artificial life support indefinitely?

I see people faced with this decision daily. For some that have no-one else to speak for them then it's a doctor making the decision. So who would you prefer make that decision?

Edited by NoGooD, 06 April 2010 - 03:03 PM.


#49
FeM

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Sorry Fem, I'm not familiar enough with you to know where your from. My guess is that the doctors there have more protection from litigation than those in the US. If you talk to any current medical students, you'll likely find that a large majority of them will not become general practitioners. The incidence of lawsuit is to high from Pt's who feel either their diagnoses or treatment wasn't enough or despite warnings, the possible side effects they ended up experiencing were detrimental to their well being. Long story short...there is a large absence of general practitioners and other genres of medical practitioners.


Still keep on staring at your picture... it's hypnotic!!!
anyways.. as I say.. here in the US there are too many lawyers, too many shallow people, and too many taking advantage of both.

#50
PHANTASM

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For one...I care. It affects me and several of my friends on a daily basis. Watching someone die because they were bit by a brown recluse and decided to debride their hand by themselves and it became infected with VRE or MRSA and develops into NF isn't fun. While I haven't see that exact scenario, I have seen something very similar and can promise you it was a sad thing to witness. And yes..I did just go there Phan. <_<

Sorry Fem, I'm not familiar enough with you to know where your from. My guess is that the doctors there have more protection from litigation than those in the US. If you talk to any current medical students, you'll likely find that a large majority of them will not become general practitioners. The incidence of lawsuit is to high from Pt's who feel either their diagnoses or treatment wasn't enough or despite warnings, the possible side effects they ended up experiencing were detrimental to their well being. Long story short...there is a large absence of general practitioners and other genres of medical practitioners.


Yes across the river from me in Madison County, Illinois there are almost no doctors left because they have the worst malpractice system in the USA. Only a fool would be a doctor in Madison County, Illinois. They have to take people to St. Louis, Missouri for anything more complicated than a broken arm or stitches.

I was living in Madison County at the time I was bit by that spider actually. And yes I am lucky it didn't get infected. But I would have died or lost my arm if I didn't do something, so it was worth a shot.

Back then you could still get antibiotics at the pet store lol.

#51
Malokyte

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:cry I had to double post due to an abundance of quotes.



I would really appreciate the opportunity to know where you got this information.

In the hospitals I've worked at...in fact all hospitals I've either worked at or done rotations at, there is either a doctor or a social worker working with the doctor that provides end of life counseling either directly to the pt. or to the person who has power of attorney, and generally all family involved as to what to expect, give them options and explain everything in a detailed manner.

There is in fact a movement by doctors, hospitals and other medical outlets to help people plan for their advance directives.




Are you basing this statement on something like Hagens 96' article: Physician Credentialing: Economic Criteria Compete with the Hippocratic Oath.

So answer me this question. If your loved one had some type of event, trauma or medical with no chance of living a normal life without being connected to a ventilator, given pain medication hourly to try and control the excruciating pain they were in as their muscles atrophy and limbs rot away due to onset of diabetes. Blood pressure medication to try and stabilize their BP, normal saline around the clock to help keep their osmotic pressure stable and keep them hydrated, food pumped into their stomach every 4-6 hours through an nasogastric tube.
How long would you keep them on? A few hours? Week? Months? Years? Even if it costs millions of dollars. Are you going to pay for that out of your pocket? Should everyone around you pay for it? At what point is a good time to stop palliative care and let nature take its course? Is it better to leave a person on artificial life support indefinitely?

I see people faced with this decision daily. For some that have no-one else to speak for them then it's a doctor making the decision. So who would you prefer make that decision?


Source of information on Republican slander? Sarah Palin commented on the health care reform saying, "The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down Syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama’s “death panel” so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their “level of productivity in society,” whether they are worthy of health care." A death panel is (loosely) a group of people who sit around and decide who dies individually. Key word is individually. The "death panel" that everyone worries about is actually a group of people consisting of the Secretary of Health and Human Services (who should be fairly competent with the practice of medicine), the Health Choices Commisioner (recommended by President, approved by Senate, medical experience), and a Health Benefits Advisory Commision (up to 17 people, chosen by President, required medical expertise). These people establish the benefits EVERYONE can recieve under the new healthcare system. This is not picking and choosing who dies now, this is now as close to impartial as you can get without rolling dice, and still informed. Basically, this "death panel" only specifies what they will cover out of the government's expense. You can still have private insurance to cover the gaps they won't cover

Haven't read that article, so I wouldn't know.

And if I had a loved one who was on death's door, with little to no hope of recovery, I'd say pull the plug. If I were the one dying, I sure wouldn't want to put a drain on the income of my loved ones. At most, keep them alive for a day or two for the loved ones to say goodbye, but after that keeping them alive serves no use except to take up medical personnels time and attention, and waste people's money.

If the doctor decides to keep the person alive, he must have a good reason for it. If there's a possible recovery, or a possible procedure to remove dependance on extensive care then ya, sure, keep them alive to see if it works. But if there's no hope, even a doctor will realize that pulling the plug is the best option.

#52
fred

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sorry sarah palin is dumb but just 1 question... why would u leave something complicated like your health up to people appointed by obama. remember obama is in charge of all 57 states lmao :P

#53
Malokyte

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sorry sarah palin is dumb but just 1 question... why would u leave something complicated like your health up to people appointed by obama. remember obama is in charge of all 57 states lmao :P


She may be dumb, but the people who heedlessly believe her are dumber.

And you assume you elect yokels into office. Obama is not an idiot. He won't appoint a philosophy major or a contruction worker to oversee health care. He will most likely appoint a person who has a medical degree, a long amount of experience in the medical community, and with a similar view in politics (as a conservative will probably assign too few benefits for a liberal such as Obama). Probably with some education in law too if he can find someone like that.

#54
TwoCrows

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She may be dumb, but the people who heedlessly believe her are dumber.

And you assume you elect yokels into office. Obama is not an idiot. He won't appoint a philosophy major or a contruction worker to oversee health care. He will most likely appoint a person who has a medical degree, a long amount of experience in the medical community, and with a similar view in politics (as a conservative will probably assign too few benefits for a liberal such as Obama). Probably with some education in law too if he can find someone like that.


Everyone has an opinion, some would definitely call Obama an idiot......

No U.S president has bowed to the point of being able to touch their toes, to saudi royalty, until him....And then snubbed our "allies" with a nod of the head.....

There is a difference in "observing the customs" of foreign culture, and nearly prostrating yourself to a foreign power. If he had bent any lower he could have kissed his own shoes. The man is a figurehead, what does it say when you almost lick your toe-nails in a bow for a foreign king and you are the president...

Thats a pretty nutcase move, and not just once...Let's do it again for the emperor of Japan....mmmm....my shoes taste mmm mmm good!

Hey, lets hire one of the top lobbyists ever (Eric Holder), i mean, the guy who promises to rid the place of lobbyists, hires one of the most prolific lobbyists?

Hey, I'll close guantanamo on XYZ date, period! cuz..eh..im The Prez..yea...I have no clue how it works, or the people involved, or the policy, or how to handle the detainees...but ima gonna do it!
Great, bull-in-the-china-shop mentality, with no preparation or forethought.

So many more, but folding himself in half to a foreign power is enough to call the man an idiot.

Edited by TwoCrows, 08 April 2010 - 12:54 PM.


#55
Malokyte

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Everyone has an opinion, some would definitely call Obama an idiot......

No U.S president has bowed to the point of being able to touch their toes, to saudi royalty, until him....And then snubbed our "allies" with a nod of the head.....

There is a difference in "observing the customs" of foreign culture, and nearly prostrating yourself to a foreign power. If he had bent any lower he could have kissed his own shoes. The man is a figurehead, what does it say when you almost lick your toe-nails in a bow for a foreign king and you are the president...

Thats a pretty nutcase move, and not just once...Let's do it again for the emperor of Japan....mmmm....my shoes taste mmm mmm good!

So many more, but folding himself in half to a foreign power is enough to call the man an idiot.


Can't comment on the middle sections not knowing enough, but the end and beginning I can.

So if I walk into your house and then shit on your carpet I won't be an idiot?

Failure to observe the customs of the nation you're visiting just makes you look like a total prick. In America Obama may be the highest ranked official, but in Japan or Saudi Arabia, he's just a distinguished leader, not above their own leaders. Plus, the nation didn't have to allow Obama into their country in the first place, so really Obama should have shown the proper respect to the host country. Which he did. If showing respect has now been drawn parallel to "kiss ass" or "weakness" then f*** I want to leave this country as soon as possible.

And since when has America lost all dependancy on the outside world? Saudi Arabia supplies a vast amount of oil for Americans to splurge, and Japan exports the 2nd most amount of products to America after Canada. To conduct such business and then show complete lack of respect to the country is just a **** move.

#56
TwoCrows

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Can't comment on the middle sections not knowing enough, but the end and beginning I can.

So if I walk into your house and then shit on your carpet I won't be an idiot?

Failure to observe the customs of the nation you're visiting just makes you look like a total prick. In America Obama may be the highest ranked official, but in Japan or Saudi Arabia, he's just a distinguished leader, not above their own leaders. Plus, the nation didn't have to allow Obama into their country in the first place, so really Obama should have shown the proper respect to the host country. Which he did. If showing respect has now been drawn parallel to "kiss ass" or "weakness" then f*** I want to leave this country as soon as possible.

And since when has America lost all dependancy on the outside world? Saudi Arabia supplies a vast amount of oil for Americans to splurge, and Japan exports the 2nd most amount of products to America after Canada. To conduct such business and then show complete lack of respect to the country is just a **** move.


Unfortunately for that argument, they dont even bow to each other by folding themselves in half...No head of state does that to another head of state, none.

So rather that "shitting on the carpet" as you put it, he has decided all on his own that just the American president will curl up into a little fetal ball to "royalty" well beyond even what they do to each other.

And there are parallels, if everyone else shakes hands, or nods their head, or says "HI!", what does it say of the person who kneels and prostrates? What does that imply? They are a servant of the person they are prostrating to? Isnt that the custom in the world? Of course there are parallels, just like words have meaning, so do actions.

What is it to snub your own country and put any other before your own; No head of state does that. They all come to the table as soverign nations, they all greet each other as equals, except the magic contortionist Obama.

Every nation on the planet is dependant to some extent, but this too has nothing to do with independence. It has to do with the mind-set of the man himself. He is socialist, his desire is to throw out this republic and replace it with yet another failed socialist utopia and he is willing to grab his ankles for foreign powers.

Finally, we pay for the goods from the middle east and Japan,but this does not come with a "grab your ankles clause". You don't go into the quick-e mart and lick the floor for the guy behind the counter because he sold you a snickers. You may shake his and and say "Dude, thanks for the drink, I was dyin!", you might even tip the guy, or come back another day and buy him a beer. But you probably wont come in, do some freakish acrobatics to see if you can count the specs on your socks for the guy....

Just as a side note? He wasnt in EITHER of their countries, they werent hosting him, they were all in London, at a conference......Presidential Fail.

Edited by TwoCrows, 08 April 2010 - 01:34 PM.





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