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#16
DoC.FreeZeX

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ok so i'll try to answer to everyone, here goes:

is the region as violent as it is described in the media?
Can you enlighten me in that regard?
The media portrays most of the Middle East as dangerous


Israel is pro-peace other wise we wouldnt even talk with the arabs and just shot them down bomb them with airplans and such.Unlike the countries around us who most lightly want us our of here and gone from this world, Israel approche is nothing like that, its more "live and let live".
the only reason our army attack is in order to prevent an attack from the other side or as a "payback"- you shot a missle on us, we'll bomb the place around it.
regarding to the media issue, they do portrays the middle east ad dangerous and its semi true- but i can assure you that if you'll visit israel no you should be mucher safer then if you visit eygpt or jorden(currently israel is the only democracy in the in here). hope i answered your questions.


For how many generations has your family been in Israel?
Also, what's general opinion on Europe or the USA in Israel? Do people like that USA is such a fierce ally and/or do they feel less enthusiastic about Europe?
What are your feelings about the long-term conflict with the Palestinians? Do you think they should be recognised as a state and be granted sovereign rights? Is there a lot of opposition to the way the settlement expansions are driving out Palestinians and/or the conflict regarding the Gaza strip coming from Israeli citizens themselves?

My family is here since 1950, my grandmother&grandfather from both sides did "Aliya" to israel in 1950.
concerning europe\usa i'll just tell you what i think- usa is basiclly fine.. sometimes president Obama is a bit annoying but nothing else. Europe is a bit more tricky, as you may or might not know most (if not all) of europe buying oil from the arabin nations- therefore seems like europe "adrode" them and choose to stick with them..i just wonder how will the world act when the arabs runs out of oil.
I do think that gaza strip should be recogonized as a self-undippendent country but since they still take electricty form Israel, and money from israel i don't think they can do it alone. In addition- i belive that gaza strip is been controled by a terrorrist organization and not a true governamant...israel is getting hit by missles from gaza strip almost by a daily bases.. and if gaza strip will become a country it means israel can declare a war against them and actually fight a country... i hate hate the conflit but i don't think it can be slove so easily..not as long as gaza has terrorist and radical islamic persons who whishes to kill every living israelin.
I do believe that most of the arabs in gaza strip are good and would rather have peaceful life than this current shit.. and so do i. most of the budget in israel goes to deffence insted of investing healty system, education and technoligical advance... both israel and Palestinians should work together in order to creat a better place..not for us but for the future generations... i've seen cartoon shows that are been watched in gaza strip and in the arab world, they show the israeli soldier as if he's a nazi soldier who just wanna kill, they describe "death as a shaid" as a good thing... its awful.. filling their future generations with such hate.


I doubt that this will ever happen. Too much bad blood, too much intractability on both sides.

you're right...more blood wont solve anything, but since israel can't lay down her weapons and say "come lets talk peace" since we already did that and got nothing.. it has to come from the raddical isalmic movments.

I feel this topic ending in nothing but arguments and bad feelings.
This volatile topic and one's similar never have a happy ending.
While I feel that this is an important topic and subject to be knowledgable about, gaming forums are the wrong place for discussion. There are many forums out there on the web on this topic.

i opened this topic in order to share my information and maybe help others to understand a bit better about what is going on in the middle east. i have no intrests in fighting anyone as well... everyone is intiteled to his\her opinion, i just want dont want this opinion to be built on lies\false stories they might have heared.

We hear about violent actions against peacefull actions (ship with food attacked,...). They really get much attention here, and theres much tension about 'who's right'.

Do note: I do not think of Israel as a violent nation, but I think many people here do. I blame the situation rather than the people (both Israelian and Palestinian). My opinion is that the Palestine people should get sovereign rights, because only in this way these two totally different nations can really start up healthy political relationships. I'm pretty sure it will end that way now or within many years. What do you think?

What I would love to know: what is the common peoples opinion about the way problems are solved there? Do they want a peacefull relationship with Palestina (and the rest of the Middle East) or is hate just too deeply anchored? What is your opinion about this?

I'm really interested in politics and even more in world politics, so I appologize if I'm taking us too far :)
I can see many people are interested in it, and I am very glad to see this. Open discussion is the key to solutions.

oh im glad you've mentioned the ship with food, the first wave of the ships has weapons on them, weapons which was making his way to gaza strip, weapons which evenually israel will suffer from... it had to be stoped. concerning the ships with real food and medical supplay- i dont think israel told them "gtfo and dont give them nothing" all israel said was "bring it over our borderds, we'll check it and pass it forward".. i think its pretty obvious why Israel may say something like that. most of the comments from the ships if im not mistaken was something like " we dont need youre premition to pass food to gaza strip" .. its silly and stupid( sorry if im offending some one). the sea around gaza strip is an israelin militery area which no ship should be allowed to pass with no premition, Israel canot and will not allowed any weapon to get into gaza strip... if they want peac so badly why on earth do they need gunz? lets go back few years, when usa was still in iraq.. lets assume i wanted to send iraw some food and medical supplay- would the american army let me pass with out checking what i borught? i dont think so.
I do think they gaza strip should become a country but first thing first: they should have a REAL democratic governamanet, they MUST clear their streets from terrorists orgnization members such as "hamas" or "hizballa"... let them live their life in peace but i dont want to be the one who's paying the bill with the blood of an israelin soldiers.
concerning the comman people opinon its divided... some will tell you "crush them burn them and make send from their skulls" others will tell you "give them what they want"... Im in the middle... help them to build a good stable DEMOCRACTIC terorrize clean society and crush who ever attack israel..israel army serv is mandatory and i have lots of friends who servrs in the army in the borders (near gaza strip).. i think they would prefer to sit at home drink a beer and watch the euro insted of gurding our borders from invadors.. (and let me remind you this guys ages are between 18-21) at that age in europe\usa you're having fun at college, party and stuff- we have to deffende our borders.. its shitty and i hate it... i want to be able to get to europe by car, i want to go to jorden and eat humos.. i wanna visit the great pyramids but i can't since i'll probably get shot the moment i cross this borders.

Something about yourself: I see you have good living environment. Are you wealthy or working in job with good salary(-->got loans+need to pay it)? Investing etc? Rich parents? Just curious.

Secondly: how about all of this terrorism thing? What I mean is that is there any coverage about these things and how do you feel about it? Is there really any "terrorist" or just blabla talking by rest of world? Tell your thoughts. :)

im well wealthy, working in a good job (im currently 20 and i finished my b.a. last week so now im taking my last exames and im done with i), investing not yet, aint got enough money and my parants economic state is stable... not rich but living well with no shortage.
the terrorisim thing- its not like im scared to walk in the street- i live in the center of israel-close to tell aviv, in the middle even if its a war we dont feel it as much as the north\south feel it...most of the terror attacks are been prevented by out forces and there are many atempts.

I just wanna remind you all about a soldier called "Gilad Shalit" , the dude was 19 and got captured. he was in hamas held for nearly 5 years and only latly got out of there thanks to a prisoner exchange deal.
He sufferd there, unlike the terrorist israel has in her jails- we feed them well, take care of their healty and medical needs.. het got nothing over there and somehow survived 5 years.
my points is that they dont treat us as human beens and care not who get hurts during their attacks, while we try to minimize civilian damage for as much as possible and trying to hit tragets only.

israel army's name is IDF- Israel Deffence Force - name actually means what this army's main goal.

Any more questions? i'll be glad to answer :)
also i forgot CSL is living in israel, and by reading his comment you can understand the life for the daily user in israel :P


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#17
Platonic

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Thanks for all the replies man. It's great to have a better sight on situation like this one and to have more than the media to rely on.
There wasn't any mentioning of weapons in our media, but I have to say this story makes more sense... :)

I think it must feel shitty to live in a country that's only safe because the army is protecting it. If I read your comment I think I underestimated the situation (because I don't believe everything the media gives us)...

Thanks for sharing this with us. I would love some more people to make topics like this one. Koreans here?

#18
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Thanks for all the replies man. It's great to have a better sight on situation like this one and to have more than the media to rely on.
There wasn't any mentioning of weapons in our media, but I have to say this story makes more sense... :)

I think it must feel shitty to live in a country that's only safe because the army is protecting it. If I read your comment I think I underestimated the situation (because I don't believe everything the media gives us)...

Thanks for sharing this with us. I would love some more people to make topics like this one. Koreans here?


Its actually not shitty at all because our army is a citizen army. There is mandatory military service for all citizens. So in essence in a country as small as ours the soldiers are literally protecting their homes. The one thing I will say about security is this, The Israeli mentality when it comes to security is very proactive for example airport and airline security personnel are trained proffessionals rather than the retards from the TSA in the USA so most problems are caught before they even happen.

#19
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Well it's the way you see it :)
Those civilians have to go to the army while they could be doing other things.
If I see your stories you can't leave Israel by car without fearing for your lives...
I wouldn't like it.

#20
DoC.FreeZeX

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jup, csl is right.
@platonic- no problem man, im glad i could help clearing things up,if anyone got more question i'll be more then happy to try and answer them :).
And its not shitty, its just annoying i can't travle where ever i want when ever i want only because of my birth place, I'm a jewish, so? i'm an israelin so? above all i'm a human been :D

p.s. you can't leave israel by car not due to the fear to our life- becuase the countries around us are hostel to us and the borders are cloes.

#21
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If I see your stories you can't leave Israel by car without fearing for your lives...
I wouldn't like it.


While its true that you cant leave Israel by car to any friendly country that doesnt bother me at all. :D

#22
TheDude

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Great topic! I love to hear stories about regions from people who live there!

First, in my opinion (which is based on western news-media), we are dealing with extremists on both sides here. On both sides these extremists fight for their cause, indeed forgetting what is best for the people, namely peace.

What I however miss in this topic is the comment of someone from the other side. I wonder what they say about Israel using about 73% (and 83% including illegal Jewish settlers) of the available water supplies for example.
Also, it's a bit weird in my opinion to say that "Israel is pro-peace" and in the same sentence say "otherwise we wouldnt even talk with the arabs and just shot them down bomb them with airplanes and such." This sentence insinuates some kind of disdain towards the Palsetinian people.

I don't know why, but I have the feeling that Western countries always choose the side of Israel, because of the World War II-history and the attached feeling of guilt. Especially Germany and the Netherlands (with the politcal anti-Islam-wing) it's always Palestine to blame. Same in US, where the people are frightened with the standardized view of terrorists being arabs, and all arabs being terrorists.

To me, that, in combination with the fact that Israel does not use any violence except for retaliation or as a preventive action, makes it very clear that we are dealing with a problem that cannot be clarified by listening only to one side, neither the Israelian nor the Palestinian. It's a problem that cannot be solved with Israel, or Palestine, or both. The whole world needs to rethink it's attitude towards this region.

By the way, if the same topic was posted by a Palestinian member, I would have had the same arguments, with contrary examples ofcourse.

So, Doc, again, great topic. Brave of you to post and very cool that you take that much time and effort to answer all the questions. Even the corny jokes.

But someone on the contrary side with an opinion? That would be a nice discussion.

#23
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Great topic! I love to hear stories about regions from people who live there!

First, in my opinion (which is based on western news-media), we are dealing with extremists on both sides here. On both sides these extremists fight for their cause, indeed forgetting what is best for the people, namely peace.

What I however miss in this topic is the comment of someone from the other side. I wonder what they say about Israel using about 73% (and 83% including illegal Jewish settlers) of the available water supplies for example.
Also, it's a bit weird in my opinion to say that "Israel is pro-peace" and in the same sentence say "otherwise we wouldnt even talk with the arabs and just shot them down bomb them with airplanes and such." This sentence insinuates some kind of disdain towards the Palsetinian people.

I don't know why, but I have the feeling that Western countries always choose the side of Israel, because of the World War II-history and the attached feeling of guilt. Especially Germany and the Netherlands (with the politcal anti-Islam-wing) it's always Palestine to blame. Same in US, where the people are frightened with the standardized view of terrorists being arabs, and all arabs being terrorists.

To me, that, in combination with the fact that Israel does not use any violence except for retaliation or as a preventive action, makes it very clear that we are dealing with a problem that cannot be clarified by listening only to one side, neither the Israelian nor the Palestinian. It's a problem that cannot be solved with Israel, or Palestine, or both. The whole world needs to rethink it's attitude towards this region.

By the way, if the same topic was posted by a Palestinian member, I would have had the same arguments, with contrary examples ofcourse.

So, Doc, again, great topic. Brave of you to post and very cool that you take that much time and effort to answer all the questions. Even the corny jokes.

But someone on the contrary side with an opinion? That would be a nice discussion.


The western world generally takes Israels side for several reasons. First Israel is the only democracy in a region filled with fanatical regimes.State sponsored terrorism affects not only the region but the whole world. Second the media is notoriously anti Israel publishing as fact unproven allegations, of course innocent civilians are going to be hurt when groups like Hamas and Hezbollah fire use civillians as human shields and fire their missles from residential neighborhoods schools and hospitals. Unfortunately th United Nations chooses to ignore this and rather focus on Israels retaliation to these missle attacks. How can anyone really care about the Palestinians when their own leaders use the money recived from other countries to buy weapons instead of buying the people food. I understand the Palestinians wanting to have their own state and they should but not at the expense of the annilation of Israel. As stated earlier in this thread the Palestinian leadership has turned down peace agreements more than one time. All the infrastructure in Israel built in the last 60 years has been by Israel while under a constant state of impending war. I dont think guilt over the Holocaust is the reason democratic nations support Israel I feel its because Israel shares the same western values of democracy and self determination as they do.

#24
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Very friendly people.
Nice country.
Had the best meal in my life so far (Humus in the northern part of Tel-Aviv.....can't remember where :cry )
Will go there for the second time by the end of this year.

The only annoying part is the airport-security, but I understand why they are so precautios.


I'm thinking about visiting Sderot; is it dangerous at the moment or good-to-go?
Also how is the situation at the borders to let's say Egypt or even Gaza. Any trouble for me to get there and back to Israel again? Friends of mine went there 2 years ago and told me that it was kinda hard for them to get back to Israel.

#25
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@cola- pm me 1 week before you're visiting israel and i'll tell you how's sderot doing. regarding Egypt- Israel and Egypt has a peace agreement tho due to the new region no one knows what will be with it. are you sure you want ot visit Egypt in this unbalanced times? and about gaza-im pretty sure you cant enter there at all, i can find out for you if needed.

@ dude-it has been said in the same sentence since the moment israel was declared as a country it was in a state of war. do not get confused ladis and gentlemen.. Israel by law is at war since the moment it was declared, we're in an emergenacy state ever since 1948.
not while ago i read about russia who choose to whipe out a country and nither the world nor the "un" said something. tho when israel decide to attack gaza strip because they shot missles at us all of a sudden the whole world is "shocked" how violent israel is.. i find it funny and a bit hypocrite.

Currently my logic dectates this: if israel has evolved alot for the past 60 years so could the Palestine people, unlike them we werent under constant treat and farthermore we didnt have 4 countries who are actually the same around us to help. (jorden, Egypt,srya, levanon). they had and still have the means to stop this stupidty and start building themself as a nation, co-op with israel for a better future. but as CSL said, their leaders take the money they get and buy weapons with it, dig tunnles, filling stockups with armory against us.
It's as simple as that- i'll support a Palestinen country the moment i'll see a true efort from THEIR side to build one... trust me i'll be the first one to go and help them build it, and so will israel.
Currently its israel and the Palestine are like 2 little kids while america and the world is the judge.. they're doing somthing so we do something. they're not going anywhere with the peace so we continue with the satalment.. thats f***ed up and not really mature i think.
You've mentioned the water supplay- i've never heared about it to be honest, but i do know they take electricety from us.


-p.s.- cola--> Humus rocks!! while you're in jerusalem go eat in a place named "Abu Gosh", they're amazing when it comes to humos, arabs- they're the true masters :).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghosh

#26
wurstcola

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-p.s.- cola--> Humus rocks!! while you're in jerusalem go eat in a place named "Abu Gosh", they're amazing when it comes to humos, arabs- they're the true masters :).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghosh

ahhhh, very good. I'll visit them for sure. Thanks

#27
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np cola :).

All i'm saying is this: if we could build a country and live here so can they, but not like this, seems like they're leaders thinks it must be "us or them" while it should be " us and them" :),
Long live the small change.

#28
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What I however miss in this topic is the comment of someone from the other side.


It's a pity indeed, that would make the story more complete (don't think anyone gets the full story from his government, so stories from several governments would help).
However, this is a gaming community. There aren't many non-western people around, because gaming is a western phenomenon.

#29
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Currently its israel and the Palestine are like 2 little kids while america and the world is the judge.. they're doing somthing so we do something. they're not going anywhere with the peace so we continue with the satalment.. thats f***ed up and not really mature i think.


That's the problem in the regio I think. None of the countries involved are taking responsibility to end the armed battles. The situation is getting more and more out of control: retaliation, semi-legal settlements, firing rockets, suicide attacks, retaliation. It's pretty much a vicious circle; caused by the Western powers when, back in 1948 they allocated this region to the Jews.
And of course, Israel is closer to the ideal Western image of how a society should be, but again; I don't think that individuals in Palestine, Jordan, Syria or Yemen are happy with the current situation either. We should be careful in the West not to judge every individual as a Hamas or Hezbollah-terrorist or supporter.

@ CSL; "How can anyone really care about the Palestinians when their own leaders use the money recived from other countries to buy weapons instead of buying the people food?"

This is exactly what I mean by not judging in general. I dont think that the individual people there honestly support these regimes. But often, due to secret police, state control and serious consequences when expressing any critics, they have no choice but to keep their mouth shut.
That's why the whole Arabic Spring is so unique. Standing up against these regimes takes a lot of courage, facing consequences even more.

#30
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I really would like to know How Israel views the US. I know Most of the stuff that the media feeds us is inaccurate and/or embellished to shade to one point of view or another. So I've tried to listen these past 40 years and tried to piece the truth together from all the clutter. My take is that Israel is our friend and that we are willing to do a lot to help. But I see it as a case of not knowing which way to jump during the last 15 or so years.

Has the US lost respect In Israel or are we tried and true friends at this point?

Do you see a solution to the problems or are we all just coasting along waiting for the next crisis to come up?

It doesn't seem to me that anything good can happen until Palestine is willing to go to the peace table (and mean it).

What do You think the US role should be or how should our role change?

What about the UN?

Just asking for your thoughts. Also How would you answer CSL ?

At this point I think a lot of Americans are tired of being the worlds "police". However I don't think our Government is....

sorry if this is confusing/rambling




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