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#1
PHANTASM

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Belarus is a former Soviet Republic next to Russia that still has an evil dictator. Their people are having huge protests. Police are rounding them up. Here is evidence.

Next time you hear someone complain that the US or Europe is evil or whatever consider what it is like in countries that do not have freedom.




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#2
Medic Kane

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Just because we have not yet slipped to the level of pubically rounding people up, does not mean we have like lemmings handed over our freedoms.



In a state of tranquillity, wealth, and luxury, our descendants would forget the arts of war* and the noble activity and zeal which made their ancestors invincible. Every art of corruption would be employed to loosen the bond of union which renders our resistance formidable. When the spirit of liberty, which now animates our hearts and gives success to our arms*, is extinct, our numbers will accelerate our ruin and render us easier victims to tyranny. If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquillity of servitude than the animating contest of freedom—go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen! - Benjamin Franklin

#3
SickOne

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lol . . . first of all Belarus actually is a part of europe so it is a complaint from something happening in europe . And its not like these things doesnt happen in the rest of europe or in the US . . (dont you just love US citizens bragging bout undemocratic countries , when they in fact live in one on their own :D )

#4
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lol . . . first of all Belarus actually is a part of europe so it is a complaint from something happening in europe . And its not like these things doesnt happen in the rest of europe or in the US . . (dont you just love US citizens bragging bout undemocratic countries , when they in fact live in one on their own :D )


Everything is relative. Your country wasn't very nice about 70 years ago either lol. Free societies can change over time and this is what everyone wants for these former Communist countries. We want them to be "normal".

Police in Belarus are putting people in detention centers for protesting a rigged election, where a hated leader got 70% of the vote. I know you're thinking "George Bush did that too" but they didn't round up 40,000 people for protesting.

#5
Pici

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We should stay out of this one and let the world resolve this without us. We go around teaching liberty yet the Govt undermines our 4th amendment, personal liberty and privacy.

#6
PHANTASM

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We should stay out of this one and let the world resolve this without us. We go around teaching liberty yet the Govt undermines our 4th amendment, personal liberty and privacy.


Yes they do. Airport-type scanners on the highways now. Net Neutrality. GPS trackers in smartphones. etc. The surveillance society.

Many countries have cameras everywhere. London has a camera on every streetcorner.

I read that Germany and Poland offered $3 billion in aid (whatever that works out to in Euros) to Belarus if they could have something vaguely resembling a fair election. Guess they won't be getting that money.

#7
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Wonder what these fools are really protesting about?? Perhaps they stopped making babushkas or something.Or they are mad because their women have to shave their legs now.

#8
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Perhaps they stopped making babushkas or something.Or they are mad because their women have to shave their legs now.



Smart comment :)

#9
Pici

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Yes they do. Airport-type scanners on the highways now. Net Neutrality. GPS trackers in smartphones. etc. The surveillance society.

Many countries have cameras everywhere. London has a camera on every streetcorner.

I read that Germany and Poland offered $3 billion in aid (whatever that works out to in Euros) to Belarus if they could have something vaguely resembling a fair election. Guess they won't be getting that money.

After 9/11 we lost many civil liberties like warrant searches, no financial privacy, medical privacy, habeas corpus has been challenged many times, as well as internet privacy. The original purpose of our Gov't was to not regulate our people. Because there really isn't no authority for the Gov't to tell us what to do with our civil liberties. From a business point of view, we should be regulating the Gov't and we essentially don't. Anyways, your right sir. The EU can pretty much take care of this themselves. We're at the point where we can't finance what we have today, we have to keep borrowing billions from China to finance our Empire and our dollar keeps crashing.

#10
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Everything is relative. Your country wasn't very nice about 70 years ago either lol. Free societies can change over time and this is what everyone wants for these former Communist countries. We want them to be "normal".

Police in Belarus are putting people in detention centers for protesting a rigged election, where a hated leader got 70% of the vote. I know you're thinking "George Bush did that too" but they didn't round up 40,000 people for protesting.

They have 'only' arrested about 600 people (http://sundaytimes.l...-poll-crackdown). Also, against Bush has been a lot more protests than in Belarus in total (but then, US has 30 times more inhabitants). To list a few protests against one of the major decisions of Bush, see Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia....st_the_Iraq_War), where, in some of the cases, more than 600 have been arrested ***.

And since everything is relative, so is the will of most western countries to turn everything into democracy. People's Republic of China is one of the fast growing counties, technology and economical speaking. And theoretical speaking it is a democracy somehow, but practically it isn't. Should it? I think that even democracy isn't the perfect situation, way to many idiots with the right to vote. Although the dictatorship in Belarus isn't ideal (or to say it otherwise: bad), the current situation in Iraq isn't ideal either. Demote the leader, and you have an anarchy. Good luck fixing that.

I think we have to stay out of that, considering the last few wars in the world, no-one is getting better. Either our country have to stay there for safety, or we created an anarchy. Either way, they are screwed, and I don't think there is an easy way to fix that. Luckily enough, I don't have to :D



***There are lies, damned lies and statistics.

After 9/11 we lost many civil liberties like warrant searches, no financial privacy, medical privacy, habeas corpus has been challenged many times, as well as internet privacy. The original purpose of our Gov't was to not regulate our people. Because there really isn't no authority for the Gov't to tell us what to do with our civil liberties. From a business point of view, we should be regulating the Gov't and we essentially don't. Anyways, your right sir. The EU can pretty much take care of this themselves. We're at the point where we can't finance what we have today, we have to keep borrowing billions from China to finance our Empire and our dollar keeps crashing.

The EU can take care for themselves on a limited level. We have 27 members, and almost everybody can't get their finances correct. We have 17 members in the euro program, and we consider kicking 3 of them out because they have their financed un-fscking-believable fscked up. The euro is crashing too unfortunately, however less fast than the dollar.

The EU is smart, large, can take care for themselves but I'm wondering when that won't be the case anymore. To give an indication, about 20% of the Dutch people voted for someone (Geert Wilders), who wanted to leave the EU. We have the same issues with people who just don't agree with each other, and I believe that that eventually will break up the EU. Then we have a problem...

#11
Pici

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They have 'only' arrested about 600 people (http://sundaytimes.l...-poll-crackdown). Also, against Bush has been a lot more protests than in Belarus in total (but then, US has 30 times more inhabitants). To list a few protests against one of the major decisions of Bush, see Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia....st_the_Iraq_War), where, in some of the cases, more than 600 have been arrested ***.

And since everything is relative, so is the will of most western countries to turn everything into democracy. People's Republic of China is one of the fast growing counties, technology and economical speaking. And theoretical speaking it is a democracy somehow, but practically it isn't. Should it? I think that even democracy isn't the perfect situation, way to many idiots with the right to vote. Although the dictatorship in Belarus isn't ideal (or to say it otherwise: bad), the current situation in Iraq isn't ideal either. Demote the leader, and you have an anarchy. Good luck fixing that.

I think we have to stay out of that, considering the last few wars in the world, no-one is getting better. Either our country have to stay there for safety, or we created an anarchy. Either way, they are screwed, and I don't think there is an easy way to fix that. Luckily enough, I don't have to :D



***There are lies, damned lies and statistics.


The EU can take care for themselves on a limited level. We have 27 members, and almost everybody can't get their finances correct. We have 17 members in the euro program, and we consider kicking 3 of them out because they have their financed un-fscking-believable fscked up. The euro is crashing too unfortunately, however less fast than the dollar.

The EU is smart, large, can take care for themselves but I'm wondering when that won't be the case anymore. To give an indication, about 20% of the Dutch people voted for someone (Geert Wilders), who wanted to leave the EU. We have the same issues with people who just don't agree with each other, and I believe that that eventually will break up the EU. Then we have a problem...


Since you mentioned Bush's protests, Obama has had just as many protests, many of whom have been arrested for death threats yet none of those Bush-threateners at protests were ever arrested, questioned, or investigated (at least as far as I could tell). So I do not why you are alluding to Bush or why comparing Bush with the Belarus tyrant. In case of the Iraq War protests, people were detained for other reasons totally aside from their protest messages.The most famous case was that of Brett Bursey, who was arrested in 2002 outside a Bush speech. The media dishonestly implied that he was arrested simply for carrying a sign that said “No War For Oil” a message which was commonplace and nonthreatening. Turns out, though, that he was arrested not because of his sign but because he refused to leave a restricted area cordoned off by the Secret Service under Title 18, Section 1752(a)(1)(ii) of the U.S. Code.

Also, your right. China should be consider be a threat considering how fast they are growing. But I believe democracy is a good thing, democracy seems to give as much freedom as possible to the public with still enough laws and order to keep control of the country. It gives the people a chance to interact with the state with the chance to vote, even if it is an illusion. Also out of all the political systems active today it has been the most successful and popular with the people. Even though democracy is not the perfect political system, I believe it is the best one we have today. I do agree that Iraq isn't ideal either, we need to borrow 10 billion dollars from China and then we give it to Musharraf, who's a military dictator, who overthrew an elected Gov't and then we go to war promoting democracy in Iraq? Hmm.

Anyways, we've got too many problems of our own who have been ignored for many years before we can deal with Belarus.Besides, we don't have the money.

#12
PHANTASM

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I was never implying that the US take any military action against Belarus. Just want to clarify that.

There are many other forms of influence. Just the act of us discussing this puts pressure on Belarus, in a way.

They have no resources worth the trouble of a US invasion. So the bankers would never allow it. Also, Belarus has a friend named Russia who would oppose any military intervention or sudden outbreak of human rights. They smashed Georgia a couple years ago because they wanted to join NATO.

I've read that the police were encircling these protests, then setting up those steel cages that can be towed away with a truck. Then they attack the protests and get most of the people to run into the side streets where they can be herded into the cages for detention. They are arresting them and figuring out who is in charge. These protests were huge. Most of these people are being released, but the protest leaders will disappear.

#13
rolf

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Since you mentioned Bush's protests, Obama has had just as many protests, many of whom have been arrested for death threats yet none of those Bush-threateners at protests were ever arrested, questioned, or investigated (at least as far as I could tell). So I do not why you are alluding to Bush or why comparing Bush with the Belarus tyrant. In case of the Iraq War protests, people were detained for other reasons totally aside from their protest messages.The most famous case was that of Brett Bursey, who was arrested in 2002 outside a Bush speech. The media dishonestly implied that he was arrested simply for carrying a sign that said “No War For Oil” a message which was commonplace and nonthreatening. Turns out, though, that he was arrested not because of his sign but because he refused to leave a restricted area cordoned off by the Secret Service under Title 18, Section 1752(a)(1)(ii) of the U.S. Code.

As I said, there are lies, damned lies and statistics. Comparing the protests against the US government and the protests against the tyranny in Belarus is based on simple statistics. Yes, people have been charged for protesting, but most of the time because protests aren't silently and almost every time some people will get violent, if the group is large enough. Or go to places they shouldn't be. Or things like that. There are always arrests, and luckily, in the US most of them are released quite fast. But counting the number protesters or number of arrests isn't the only measurement.

However, I think I should state it more clearly: Bush is not evil. Although I don't share a lot of his opinions, he is much better than that guy in Belarus.

Also, your right. China should be consider be a threat considering how fast they are growing.

Considering China as a treat for what? I'm not happy with some things they do, but that is also for my own government.

But I believe democracy is a good thing, democracy seems to give as much freedom as possible to the public with still enough laws and order to keep control of the country. It gives the people a chance to interact with the state with the chance to vote, even if it is an illusion. Also out of all the political systems active today it has been the most successful and popular with the people. Even though democracy is not the perfect political system, I believe it is the best one we have today.

Well, there are more, but most of them are not realistic in the real world. I believe that democracy is (one of) the best we currently use. Yet not having democracy is not by definition the worst.

I personally always wonder, why is it possible that in a company problems are solved quite easily, where in a government it most of the times can't. And there is a very simple answer I believe. Because in a company you usually don't have idiots making the important decisions :P But that is a whole different discussion.

Anyways, we've got too many problems of our own who have been ignored for many years before we can deal with Belarus.Besides, we don't have the money.

No one has. But according to some people in our government there is a solution. If we get rid of the army, we have more money to spend :mellow:

#14
PHANTASM

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from http://sundaytimes.l...-poll-crackdown


Relatives and friends of detained opposition activists wait to transfer parcels outside a detention centre in Minsk December 23, 2010. Authorities in Belarus will hold five former presidential candidates in custody on suspicion of organising protests over the disputed vote in the ex-Soviet republic last weekend, police said on Thursday. REUTERS

MINSK, Dec 23, 2010 (AFP) - Belarus on Thursday rejected Western criticism of its harsh crackdown after the re-election of President Alexander Lukashenko as it extended legal action against leading figures of the opposition.
Belarussian authorities arrested more than 600 people on the night of December 19 after a massive rally gathered in central Minsk to protest the presidential elections and call them illegitimate.
British and German foreign ministries have strongly criticized the crackdown on the rally, while Poland has gone as far as to say that Lukashenko may not have won the polls at all.
But the Belarussian foreign ministry on Thursday called the criticism an “initial, involuntary reaction”.
“They are of a very emotional character, lacking a rational component,” said the ministry's spokesman Andrei Savinykh, Interfax reported.
Meanwhile, the number of people facing criminal probes in Belarus over post-election protests has grown to 21, including a large proportion of the country's most prominent liberal activists and journalists.
The suspects include seven opposition candidates who challenged Lukashenko in the election, as well as their aides, other opposition activists, and opposition website editors.
All but two candidates are behind bars in a prison used by the Belarussian KGB. The remaining pair -- Rygor Kostusev and Dmitry Uss -- are both barred from leaving the country.
“According to sources we trust, Lukashenko did not win these elections,” said Polish Foreign Minister Radoslaw Sikorski, adding that “he obtained well below 50 percent” in both the early vote and on the election day.
“Perhaps this is where the reason is hiding for a brutal and irrational reaction,” Sikorski told Poland's TVN24 channel on Tuesday.
Belarus' Savinykh said Sikorski's source of election results was “falsified data” that was “planted on the Internet” from one of the companies organizing exit polls.
According to preliminary results Lukashenko was re-elected to a fourth term with nearly 80 percent of the vote, compared with 83 percent in 2006.
Candidate Kostusev formally appealed against the results late Wednesday, taking a 38-page list of all alleged violations during the polls to the country's election committee Wednesday night, Belarussian media reported.

/end copy

In Belarus they arrest anyone who even runs against the dictator.

The other presidential candidates have been arrested.

The dictator got 80% of the vote lol. No one gets that, especially with seven other candidates. Except maybe Saddam Hussein, who usually got 99.99% of the votes in the Iraqi elections they staged.

They say they arrested 600 people, who knows how many it really was.

#15
Pici

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As I said, there are lies, damned lies and statistics. Comparing the protests against the US government and the protests against the tyranny in Belarus is based on simple statistics. Yes, people have been charged for protesting, but most of the time because protests aren't silently and almost every time some people will get violent, if the group is large enough. Or go to places they shouldn't be. Or things like that. There are always arrests, and luckily, in the US most of them are released quite fast. But counting the number protesters or number of arrests isn't the only measurement.

However, I think I should state it more clearly: Bush is not evil. Although I don't share a lot of his opinions, he is much better than that guy in Belarus.

Considering China as a treat for what? I'm not happy with some things they do, but that is also for my own government.


Well, there are more, but most of them are not realistic in the real world. I believe that democracy is (one of) the best we currently use. Yet not having democracy is not by definition the worst.

I personally always wonder, why is it possible that in a company problems are solved quite easily, where in a government it most of the times can't. And there is a very simple answer I believe. Because in a company you usually don't have idiots making the important decisions :P But that is a whole different discussion.

No one has. But according to some people in our government there is a solution. If we get rid of the army, we have more money to spend :mellow:

In that case I don't see what your point was or is. Why compare them? Their both on ends on the political spectrum. Also, most were not arrested for disturbing the peace, but death threats.They were commonly displayed at public protests. I support the arrest and prosecution of anyone who threatens our president. The threats all on its own is a federal crime, according to the United States Code. They don't released them quite fast. You can have a protest without calling forth the death of somebody.

Personally, I think President Bush was evil. The Patriot Act does a great deal of damage to Free Speech, Habeas Corpus, Privacy, pretty much the entire Constitution. Pretty much the Patriot Act gave Bush the same power as the dictator, he just didn't use them.

The rise of China from a poor, stagnant country to a major economic power within a span time of 28 years, that to me sounds like the greatest success stories of modern times. They have the most active military personnel in the world with 2,285,000. Sheer numbers is the oldest trick in the book.

I think the Gov't is not the solution to our problems but the whole Gov't is the problem. <_<
The government system is no longer controlled by "we, the people." Instead "of the people, by the people, and for the people," we now have a government "of the people, by the bureaucrats, for the bureaucrats."

Well good luck with that, we're tired of policing the world. I believe the world can solve their problems without us.

Edited by Pici, 29 December 2010 - 01:44 PM.





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